The Best of Silence - Part 4

I watched the DVD of Vangelis' "Mythodea" the other night. I awed to say the least to see that he got to work his particular musical magic in the Temple of Zeus itself. Now how is THAT for a damn fine venue? It may need a couple of throw cushions but it still rocks I'd say!"

Some say that it is difficult to see how so many get their views of ancient religions (often subjected to the misnomer “Paganism”) so skewed out of true when there is so much information to be had on them. After all one needs simply to go to any university library and one may find tonnes of studies on many aspects of pre-Xtian religions - and even some related magical practices!

And it is true that there is a lot written, on such subjects and if I may be permitted to be a touch facetious I would say that some of it even researched! I personally find that the main reason that most people think that most various modes of ancient religious thought is inaccessible is due to the fact that it is rarely actually sought. As they say - it's all leg work and NOTHING comes for nothing! Most people approach this journey with the subconscious desire to find what they want. This is all well and good as they most often do find it (when reality lacks then selectivity fills in the gaps in most cases!) BUT it must also be said that when we seek out the past we must learn to swallow the coal with the cherries.

When looking back, one is always struck by the idea that there is just so damn MUCH back there. Where to start is always the first problem – followed quickly by that peculiar feeling of drowning that tempts us to use terminology like “Paganism” to describe what we are looking at. This must be resisited as it is a first cause type danger. Much of what people call “Paganism” is emphatically NOT Paganism. Many of the so-called “Pagan” gods and goddesses were in fact “CITY BASED”. They had temples and priesthoods in town and cities and were about as far removed from rurality as the modern “checkout chick”.

It can be somewhat staggering to note that people (if anything) were even more willing "to believe" BEFORE now than many ARE today. Hell we are so damn civilized and savvy these days. We don’t believe in superstition … unless the television news says we should. The Cathode Ray God dispenses truth to us and we believe it. Hell we don’t even know how the damn box works and we trust what it tells us!

And don’t give me that bullshit techno speak … if you personally know two people who actually understand the total mechanics of broadcast, reception and the workings of the end decoder box you are WELL in the MINORITY!! The use of jargon is but one step away from that joke about pornography: “Well the pornographers .. ummm pornograph things .. then they send the pornography through the air and you receive it through … ummm … a pornograph. It is as lame as the visual of an old gramophone physically altered to fit the imagined description of a “pornograph” is funny.

What I find truly fascinating is how those believers vary from those of today … or, (more precisely, given the section about television and considering there is an election coming up) what I find so truly fascinating is whether or not they actually ARE so different after all!

ME …. PAY TO ATTEND PAGAN COUNSLLING COURSES?– Are you people Serious!?

Hmm ... you see this is hard for me because while I feel it's an intrigueing thing but I can't help but feel sad that now our people have to play "society’s" game so as to attend courses to do what we do. I can't help but think of this in the same context as when I first saw a certificate course in energy work being offered to me so that "as a witch" I could learn “how to do it”. When I queried what they thought I *DID* with my time if not the observation and use of energies, I further noted that they didn't get the point I was making at all – odd that.

It is not that I don't think that this sort of thing might be useful especially in the Neopagan community but hell - to me it smacks of selling Aboriginals certificate courses in their own history ... how did we let things go so far I wonder?

I know that the argument is that the sort of places who offer such things focus on providing “educational programs” for those “Pagans” who plan to work in a “ministering” capacity. Now apart from the frightfull vaguety of such a statement I would argue that it sounds like the vocational element of the sort of learning the average Wiccan should already be getting to me. I by no means advocate that everyone should go for what is generally termed as "Third Degree" level (ie the skills of deific interface and group running skills - what could be loosely termed as "ministry" to a degree) as I believe from past experiences that not only is not everyone capable of that role - they are not all suitable or comfortable in that role.

Either way the actual thrust of my view on it is that what I see in such provided curricula (if indeed the outlines often provided could be granted such a lofty title!) is covered fairly amply in the context of studying for the third in any group that is “worth it's salt”. To the objection some may make - What of solitaries? Well I must respond that as the name implies I am somewhat at a loss to understand that they would require such skills ... working, as they do by themselves (although, it is true these days - quite comically - that there are many groups of solitaires! My oh my, GROUPS of Solitary Witches!! How the world turns!)

I guess here I should point out that the difference between this sort of thing and most of the solitaries I have met is that they were so because they want to get on with their OWN work – rather than be involved in communities that arguably render them a contradiction in terms. Most of them dislike to varying degrees having “to do for” others. Of those who are solitary but want to be in with others? Well as I have said, there certainly seem to be many about these days but all differences between networking connectives (shall we say) and flocks, covens and etc aside, personally I would advocate a name change if not perhaps a more credible manner of having cake and eating it too.

While we are here however, what should we say of networking amongst solitaries? Why not indeed? There are in fact thriving networking set ups about the place and I certainly agree heartily that they have their place and largely do so well. I don’t believe a pagan ministry or clergy is necessarily required in this case however.

As a case in example, I shall tell you what one student of my intimate acquaintance in that lamentable “solitary seeks other” state of affairs did ..

He made us of his skills to spot the “marked people”, made use of the yellow pages and some good sense and then tracked those most “likely marks” down to public gatherings – not that it was really very hard. That he then discovered, NOT “a community” but rather; a bunch of people who would dearly have loved to use that word, avail themselves of it’s benefits but could not due to the fact they hated each other so vehemently it was largely impossible; is a moot point. That they turned out largely to bear no resemblance whatsoever to actual practicing members of the occult – much less “witches” or “pagans” to their mind etc is likewise beyond the point; (those that actually were what their titles suggested were quickly spotted and verified by their use of passes, marks and the judicious use of ones own abilities!) That this particular student then formed his own societies and communities to serve various ends for various folk, (including himself) at various times perhaps IS the point – or maybe not. I don’t want to bog down in one spot so I’ll keep moving – the point has been made to those paying attention.

The hermit rarely has the best view of the social mores in an understanding way after all. That aside, there is after all anyway such courses already available if one cares to look in various legally recognized institutions.

It is all very laudable to set something like these up and set the highest standards one believes attainable in academic and practical excellence, (both in terms of the faculty AND student bodies) however such a passtime is very vulnerable to being seen and drawing to it people who may well suggest: (as I have heard it said) "That way we can be just as good as the clergy of OTHER RELIGIONS!" !?!??!?! Yes I am quoting – scary to think that this came out of the mouth of someone running a group isn’t it!?

Not only is such an idea NOT a good one to have about but well ... such courses and etc need to be recognised by the wider society to be much more than what we can already provide for our own people! Another idea which I find strikes me now, (as it has often when I have encountered such activities) is: “In terms of ministry and ministering, surely a level of religious or traditional specificity is required for it to be viable and or effective?”

I understand perfectly how far one can go “winging it” on “catch alls” like "The Goddess and The God" blart .. but well the stumbling block is still there. Even with that level of subtlety (dare I suggest we also consider it LAXITY to concerning level!) there is little chance for the required level of “connection” that is required for “ministry” being able to exist between, (for example) us and those of different faiths.

Surely many of the neo pagan faiths have enough in common to make a sort of “cross/para/super traditional ministering” possible. but well there are also some pretty huge differences outside of those circles. When we come back down to saying "Well the training allows us to minister to our own within traditions" then again we come down to the same questions: "Why is that not being done IN HOUSE?” (so to speak) and “Is that not more effective?" These are important questions as rarely answered as they are asked I find.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for garnering extra skills and honing edges - hell “good business is where you find it”! I just always find the same questions not being answered when I encounter this sort of thing or perhaps should I say certainly not being answered WELL ENOUGH to make it all that viable so as to require the level of interaction, finance and etc.

As I said, I can see how it would be quite useful to some - I am just putting out there the “devils advocate stance” that says: "What the .. Hunh!?" There is always plenty of supportive copy on the websites and the wee dinky leaflets such organizations seem to have oceans of but from where I stand ... it is always important to have the other questions raised as well - otherwise it isn't actually questioned thoroughly – just to the comfortable level- which is rarely very beneficial to anyone.

Another related issue is one that leads on from here to my mind and it involves the whole IDEA of there being some sort of “professional multi disciplinary/traditional group of wandering ministers or clergy”. This is another danger point for me - again I understand that for many this may be desirable but I do not require anyone else’s ratification to do what I do. I wonder quietly that if the need for such a thing is so widespread – are we not in a lot of trouble? Would this be not simply treating symptoms and ignoring a far more deadly cause? Considering that the modern occult scene might require such things suggests to me that it’s fundamental basis of belief in itself and ability to relate directly to whatever gods it deems appropriate is seriously eroded. Frankly as most people say that these are the very things that attracted them TO such practices and faiths in the first place, I really wonder what the modern scenes and its adherents are actually doing. Certainly I wonder if they do anything or ever even consider the wider ramifications of their very self identity – much less their identity as a conglomerate whole!

If I were to decide that this is a direction to head in, I think I would tend rather more towards taking on regionally recognised courses toward becoming a legal celebrant or some such other specific vocation secular or otherwise. Gods know the few celebrants I have dealt with in the past have tried to “strip mine” my brain and books when they discovered who I was! Maybe we should start selling rites to them like we would clothes or any other handcraft! ahhahah)

Those who wish to work in a public capacity should (note I say SHOULD - not that many do or are!) be tutored and mentored to said ends by their own elders FIRST and THEN make use of recognised courses etc as an adjuctory public interface that allows for and ensures public and legal recognition. Likewise I would argue that coven leaders who find themselves in counselling roles are simply doing the job their station demands - HP(S) 3rd etc. Those who deal with the media and events and etc, fine take other courses and the more legally recognized the better (if only for your own legal coverage!) Hey again ... all I am saying is "Options! You do got options!" and it seems to me that many choose the most popular or fashionable rather than those most favoured by the legal professions or wider society. It is all well and good for us all to give each other nifty certificates but at the end of the day they don’t mean squat out there. We need to examine whether or not we feel a need to be recognized – if we do then we need to jump through the appropriate hoops and if not – it is business as usual. I don’t agree that we need to be “taken seriously” by the mainstream. I don’t feel a need to “keep up” at all – but hey that is just me and quite happily agree that some out there do have such needs and for them I say “Well OFF you go – knock yourselves out! If one does not succeed, it is rarely these days for want of options or opportunity!”

At the end of the day we each do what WE do, the way WE DO IT and the standards we set for ourselves do tend to be seen fairly obviously by those that matter. (Ensuring quality control? Well that is another matter and a prickly one I admit - but I think if we deal with the fear of this first we may go some way to settling the other!) If we all constantly strive to do what we do better than those we looked up to when we were being taught ... that is perhaps a good starting point to the future.

Some questions were asked after this initial screed went out and some of them and the responses are worth reading:

How does being a 3* Witch provide one with the skills to counsel someone? I don't think it does. You might be a 3*, but what's that got to do with counseling?

Hmm well naturally there is more to the third than this however one of the primary reasons in wicca would be the running of a group. Now admittedly there is more out there than wicca – however much of what is about is based on it’s structure sooo back to the third running groups. If one is to run a group – then I would argue that they’d be pretty poor at it without at least basic counseling skills. Running a coven adequately will certainly sooner or later encompass and/or require various forms of counseling. Whether it be to the members of that coven (which is of course the ideal – as clergy to a congregation with the various specificities that requires – as has been touched on since the separation of religion and counseling and the oft times real world lack thereof) or as a HP(S) of a coven to one who is bought to you from without (which no matter how good one is at it – without legal credentials in this area I’d be referring them to someone professional!)

Simply put, I think a third degree should be capable of counseling to hold the degree! In this case, yes I think that anyone of third degree level should have at least basic skills in these areas (and more besides!) with a view for personal improvement. This I think is important to add in here and I think most would agree – that in this case the third would not necessarily preclude interest in such courses – nor participation! I have many skills – but I am always interested in the latest thinking on each of them … even if I wind up saying “Hmm … I don’t think that furthers me” afterward.

I think such things as courses and so on are more about Paganism(s) finding its voice(s).

I am still out to lunch on that one – as to why it needs one for a start and secondly, (I guess) simply because I am more of a mind to say that I don’t actually believe it has HAD one or WILL have one. Simply many voices saying many different things for a while and fading out – singularly and collectively … but again this is a different and perhaps much more complex issue that our various thoughts on these sorts of organizations.

When did “Faith” become a dirty word? I think the F word is strangely absent from just about every pagan list I have ever been on, considering how religious people consider themselves.

One way I wonder about its inclusion of lack thereof is in terms of ministry. I am a tad leery on the terms “ministry” and “counseling” being used in the same context unless that is a given, as in “I counsel to those I would also minister to”. As I touched on but don’t think I was very coherent about – I can (and have) “ministered” (for lack of a better term that comes to mouth right now) to those of faiths other than my own as best I could in the past. I will point out that I have always made a point of saying “But well there are points here that you should REALLY bring up with your own clergy!” just as often as I have also in the past said: “Nope I don’t think my background would be helpful to you or will allow me to go into anything I think may help you”. It goes without saying that in terms of groups I have run neither of these apply due to a certain level of shared background. Afterall, I can generally advise say an Asatruar, or a Roman Catholic for that matter – BUT I AM NOT QUALIFIED in those fields so my assistance must by definition be of limited scope. On the same hand it goes without saying that I have also counseled those of my own and compatible faiths – but always referred on to professional help as a matter of course.

Often people have come to me and asked me to advise them on some part of their lives or other and sometimes I feel worried because what seems dreadfully straightforward to me as the solution that I and others of my kind would not think twice about I know full well they will have moral and religious problems with. I am certain that I have not fully resolved my interaction with this other than to prefix the answers with: “Ok this may not be for you but what *I* would do is this”. It goes without saying surely that there are also times when the solution can easily be tailored to suit others, but here I am talking about when it doesn’t work. Rarely do we need courses in what to do when everything works just fine – more often when the “deal goes bad”.

I think that there are many who can be equated with rough equivalents due to the basis many have in “the same soil” so to speak but just try ministering to a Roman Catholic who is all big with “happy happy” about the new pope (for example) the way we would find even possibly acceptable. Do we really expect that such would find our assistance acceptable much less our ways? In such cases I do think that a firm referral to “one of their own” is the order or the day. Ahh the dramas of psych, faith, belief and the assorted jargons of each being intermingled!

As a 3rd degree, I think we should have basic counseling skills. We are supposed to be religious leaders. Every other religion requires those skills in their clergy, why should we be any different?

It is a serious worry to me the sheer numbers of people I come across that actually need some form of counseling.

>What about the possible evolution of a form of elitism amongst those people who have this or like “professional” training?

Now here I do spot an interesting situation. There will always be elitism – as long as someone can do something another can not it is a given inevitability to my mind. I think personally it is a good thing, after all when I want my tax return done I go to the elitist tax fella and I don’t even BOTHER to debate issues with him! BUT; and here is a good one – what about the priest/doctor versus the wise(wo)man situation we had not so long back? It reminds us that elitism only lasts as long as it’s skills can sustain it to the eyes of the many. That is why I don’t bother a great deal with being “taken seriously” as several people have put it to me over the years – because simply put: there will always be some who come to someone like me rather than the “experts” with bits of paper … and when the day comes that they don’t??

Hell I’ll take a happy vacation! Hahahaahahhaha!

So in that much I agree – as long as elitism can sustain itself I am happy for it to exist – in all forms. Simply that I don’t participate in something doesn’t mean it is not important to someone else.

Indeed I get the fear when I hear someone using or being referred to in that peculiarly somewhat awed fashion reserved for the obscure and the professional. I agree that quality is a big part, along with suitability and capability but again like many of you I have met many HP(S) whose titles don’t match the time or effort. To my mind both are needed. I say you simply have to call them as you see them – much to the discomfort of some. After all did we not just have a guy who was doctor (being ratified by someone somewhere – perhaps overseas??) getting into strife “up north”? Paper isn’t all it is cracked up to it seems.

Ministry I would argue is at it’s best and simplest when enacted to the benefit of one’s own. A solitary by definition has no use for such a situation. When we are concerned with ministry directed towards those other then I prefer to use the word advise for the belief/faith element must be tempered even in some cases to negation. The hows etc for myself I have elucidated earlier in this post.

When you say "recognised courses", are you referring to the existing counselling courses available? As I mentioned before, these courses are not sensitive to pagan religion or pagan needs ... either they
sidestep the question completely or they are religiously-oriented *away* from engaging with paganism on its own terms.

Nor do they NEED to be. That is NOT their function. There is no requirement for pagan courses in this field – that would be a desire. The religious background of the counselor may indeed allow them further insights in their work but having a religious counseling course actually is another field of endeavour again – and one that I have argued can be taken up elsewhere.

It should be noted here however that all this aside as it has been said to me: “Ohh waaah – that’s the job kiddo. You chose it – get on with it.” True there are out there as many coven leaders that are (lets not be diplomatic about ineptitude) poor as counselors as there are those that are crap at just about all aspects of the position – that I have no argument about but am not getting further into it that is a judgment call I’ll do in private! However I will make the point that one does not get “thrust” into a third – one elects for it and works towards it. There is a community that allows them to learn the skills – it’s called ones mentors and sponsors and HP/S. That there are other outside groups again and that to the vocationally chosen leaders these are all options that have and are taken up is all the way through my initial and since lines on this subject – irrelevant of the back and forwards I have meandered through.

I am going to deliberately shuffle the context here to make a point that is kind of relevant to the various viewpoints being presented as a subtext to the arguments back and forth on this and many other issues by saying: “Yes I agree that for those who are NOT having their needs met – they need to seek else where”. Seems a picky point perhaps but one that is often forgotten or lost rendering some responses unintelligible. Those who stay with any line do so because they are given no reason to seek elsewhere.

While we are looking at some answers to questions … here are some more general ones that were asked under the cover of the same dialogue. They aren't really all that relevant to it but are valid enough and often encountered questions so they were worth considering and including here:

There is an assumption that a particular tradition has all the answers.

This is an assumption of practice that most outside a tradition have about said traditions. That one believes their way to be better than all else is a given – irrelevant of who the subject is – otherwise they would be doing something else. But this is a secret deep down thing at the core of every practitioner that enables them to adhere to their ways and facilitates (it should be said) their interaction between them and their own and them and their deities (or other paradigmatic denizens). In this manner it is highly beneficial. It is true that some enact this fact upon others and in this instance it becomes a bad thing just as enacting one’s coffee on another is unpleasant. It is true that people remember the bad long after the good though it is true but most people of a tradition with any length of bone (shall we say) eventually no matter how belatedly get the same length of bone themselves and are all the better for it. All we can hope for is tolerance all round.

I know VERY few pagans who have direct knowledge of working with death and the dying, wedding ceremonies and bookkeeping for that matter.

Which is a pity, all of which are desirable at least and tutored if not found in my background but I make no bones about the fact that my background is different from most. As I argued, I am sure many do not have such things and thereby require it and that such is lamentable. Yes this group is one way such could acquire said things – one of many.

Elitisim … “you’re not good enough to be in our group... WTF?” To deny some ones spiritual path because of a personal judgment call!

Just to clarify this stance somewhat. Elitist – yes and why not? Why I wonder is it that so many react to elitism as if it is somehow an alien concept never encountered when such a hard-line “anti elitism” is by definition elitism personified?

By definition all non-public groups are and generally are happy to be so. That would be their decision and hence part of their spiritual path. By definition the paths walked by these groups are NOT for all but they do generally tend to respect other’s right to be different. This is often seen as “tipping one’s hat” to the much-vaunted “tolerance” of the modern era. I often find it odd that this same is so rarely returned by those who seem to demand it most often as “the only acceptable way of life”. One MUST show tolerance and allow people to be the “way they want to be” – unless their way is something I consider to be intolerant … THEN they have NO RIGHT whatsoever to express themselves. What a quandary!! Besides of which – it is not denying some ones spiritual path – it is separation.

I have the greatest respect for coven work but think that much of the lack of transparency that's associated with it is mystic bullshit of the worst order. Privacy is one issue but that is rarely a reason given when discussing the topic.

How about the acceptance of the fact that various oaths are a part of most spiritual paths – and that the keeping of the same is a moral and dare I say spiritual duty? This is the flip side of that coin. Apart from this it should be said that frankly at the end of the day no one has a RIGHT to another’s … well anything. The public has no more RIGHT to what goes on in closed groups than I would have demanding say (as an example only) a report on someone’s last sexual encounter.

“Nothing comes for nothing” there is no “free lunch”. Various understandings come about best when we are “cut off” from the larger whole. It should also be noted that in some cases this is precisely the POINT – alone certain things work and are special. Hopefully this clarifies some of the misunderstandings that may have arisen due to lack of background from some. As is has been said, manifold is the ire of being refused admittance – and that too is sometimes the point!