Some Old Questions Answered Pt 3
A wee while ago, I joined an e list and when I was going back through their archives I found a whole big long discussion about myself! I thought it was quite funny and have since said that if any of the people were still on the list and still wanted their queries answered, I would. I got no response and that also I found a bit amusing,.
None the less it was all a long time ago and now, unlike then I am free and have a mind to explain some things. No one wanted to hear it but I felt it made an interesting exercise anyhow so I did it for this wee corner of my mind. Some of the questions you will see posed directly or indirectly here have been asked repeatedly for years. Perhaps it is time to answer them so they can be laid to rest.
I have taken out the names of those who asked the questions to protect the innocent and the not so innocent. I have left some names in where there could be no case of it being detrimental or where it is public record and required for understanding. Basically where it is my story I will say what should be said but those who asked for the tale can remain safely anaonymous. I have no ill will towards them but they perhaps would not want to be mentioned here so … leave it as is.
Some of the things spoken of here in are being done so for the very first time. All the things that happened did so nearly a decade ago and so I reckon it is safe to talk about it now. Some people might get riled about some of this but hey – it was a decade ago and now I have finally answered the questions so let’s move on.
Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:31
Message #15160 of 35699
Re: food for thought
Hi K.. As you saw by the previous url you found.. young Scottseemed enamoured with Bill Liddell. Bill Liddell and one Ryse Owen, aself styled Cabalist, were regular associates of House Asteroth..
Now here I will have to explain a fair bit. I would ask you, my dear readers to bear in mind that some of this has never even been discussed by me before outside of the time and a very small group – many of whom only ever got told bits and pieces. Should I sound a bit stilted, it will be largely due to the fact that it is still weird to me to be saying openly what was going on.
It is very true that we had quite a bit to do with both of these people among many others than this or that person would find .. at best unsavoury. Indeed I think I can say with total surety that many of the people we had dealings with were at loggerheads for this reason or that reason – often at the same time.
In my opinion, much to its detriment. Bill Liddell and Ryse Owen werebosum buddies with.. wait for it.. Yes the infamous slease bag..Danny Searl.
I am unsure that is entirely accurate. Since the “get go”, (so to speak) Bill had reservations regarding Danny beyond those he had for everyone. Indeed in the later times, I know for a fact that Bill was aware of several of the actions that finally fractured Danny’s group. The details of this I will not further comment on. It should be remembered that Bill was not public at the time for various reasons – not the least of which being family commitments.
Rhys I remember expressing his reservations as early as the first time I met Danny at the open meeting to discuss whether or not it would be a good idea to have a conference. All three of us were aware that he was “skating close to unacceptable in some manners”, (as I remember putting it at the time) but had nothing really to go on. As all those concerned in the early days of the conference had their own peccadilloes and secrets we left it at that. The idea was to get people together – all else would become known and be reckoned with later.
I clearly remember that we all agreed that most other groups would contain pasts and practices that we, (collectively and singly) would disagree with in one way or another. It should not be construed from this that there was any collusion between Danny and any of us. Collusion between the three of extended as far as we agreeing, technically, on principle that a conference would be a good idea and that if it were not as inclusive as it could be – there would be no point in even having one. As I remember it, the conference was Rhys’s baby and he pitched to several people. I was bought on quite early because I had done similar things on a smaller scale and Bill was included due to his background and seniority. There was selective contact between us all the whole time.
Scott, to his credit, always knew Danny was an arsehole,and treated him accordingly.
My first contact with Danny was at the open meeting that was held at some hall somewhere near the city – I don’t remember its name. I remember on that day the question arose of safety and Danny put it forward, (I believe) that the whole could conceivably contradict the whole notion of “not leading one’s own brothers and sisters into danger” and that furthermore the notion of perhaps having to make a physical stand would contradict: “An’ it harm none”. I remember pointing out to him that not all present were Wiccan by any stretch of the imagination. I can remember vividly looking at him and thinking that I did not like him. He had a particular air about him that I instinctively distrusted and that set my teeth on edge.
In the time I worked with others toward Pagan ’98, I found myself opposed to him on several occasions, (beyond my public dislike of the modern “wiccan” ethos at the time) and often found myself wondering at his cavalier attitude on certain issues. I remember at one meeting him claiming that he had a “newspaper reporter in his pocket”. I queried this in strenuous terms simply with the words: “Does that mean the same thing when you say it as it does when I say it? Can you silence him if needs be?” Suffice to say I made no particular secret of the fact that I disliked and distrusted him and as memory serves he made no bones of his stance either.
The whole of this culminated at one meeting when, (and I am unsure now how this came about) he made quite a big deal of his being a “third degree” to me. In that moment I knew why I disliked him and made it clear when I stated outright that what he had said was “Bullshit” and that it was patently obvious to anyone with any real experience that he had not “carried the spirit” in his life. In short he did not have the “mark” – he was lying and I stand today beside that assessment.
There would be further events to do with Danny but I will deal with that later when it comes up.
Hell, IMO Alex Saunders was a big enoughbull shit artist.. but Bill Liddell and this "Pickengil" stuff...
I’ll leave that as it stands. It is common knowledge that everyone thinks themselves ahead of any other at the end of the day and the political tides of time make some statements that were certainly expedient at the time inconvenient now. Here we have words from long ago when I happen to know, Bill had not looked into the subject much. It was also weel before Bill explained any of the parts people did not understand and largely exploded the whole "no one takes it seriously" line. I have dealt with it elsewhere and am not done yet - so we'll leave it there for the moment.
The whole shitfight between House Asteroth and Old Proff Q, wasfuelled by B.L. and R.O., who, IMO, used Scott and his group topunish Q for what, in their perception, was "Stealing their idea"when Q put on Pagan 98.
No not really. There is a lot of extra stuff that happened that Bill at that time was totally unaware of.
In my estimation, based on what I saw and what I heard from many sources, Quentin did a first rate shoddy job of organizing the first conference. In my opinion then and now, he made a complete hash of it and there was a hell of a lot of covering and cleaning up that Rhys did for Quentin at the time so that very few people knew about it.
For my own part I had argued with Rhys from the get go about Quentin who I had thought form the start to be not made of the required stuff to carry out the job properly and in a manner I would consider above board and professionally. I was also concerned that his public statements were driving some people way which again, was not the desired outcome. I remember that Rhys felt quite put upon at one stage as not only I and Bill but others as well were berating him, (rightly or wrongly) for what they felt was a poor choice.
I do remember one discussion with Rhys when he made it clear that he felt that his original idea had been totally lost. By this he meant not lost to anyone else but rather that what he had tried to give life to had become unrecognizable and was now serving other agendas. I also know that Bill had reservations about the idea as a whole and very quickly washed his hands of it to a large degree when the stories of what was going on began to come to light.
(Wonder what they think of me for taking thewhole Qld Pagan Festival thing and running with it?) I believe R.O.has parted with House Asteroth now... In fact I believe H.A. isactually now defunct. I sincerely hope Scott Leedham and Darren.. thethree surviving members, fare well and manage to survive to becomeelders themselves one day.. All three were nice enough guys really..
By this time the House was indeed defunct. Leedham was teaching his student Elizabeth and Darren had moved with his fiancée. Leedham had been training Elizabeth earlier as an adjunct to the House and then afterwards when I officially handed her over to him as an apprentice. I did this in the last days of the House when I could no longer devote the required attention to her well being and progress. Darren was living the quiet life and had little public contact. What either are doing these days would be for them to relate.
the thing with Q was something they were, well sort of, Gee-ed up toget involved in... Ya want the low down on all the "Who did what andwhen, and to whom" of the Pagan community? I got it all; going backdecades.... Bill W.
Much of it perhaps and now with what will be in here, hopefully these last additions make some of it now make sense. Indeed Bill and I have spoken of this all three years ago and notably were some words spoken to the effect of this same notion. The idea that I was somehow “egged into” conflict with Quentin by Rhys and Bill is simply inaccurate although I have no doubt that this story was related to Bill by various peoples for reasons best explained by their own agendas.
The whole time we were working on the Pagan 98, Rhys was defending Quentin to me in one way or another and as far as I recall, Bill very quickly decided that the whole thing was a waste. Indeed Rhys even tried to defend Quentin’s actions to me when he threw us all out of the Ritual Committee – which resulted in some very curt responses from me about Rhys’ “soft touch approach” not wanting to cost me anything further.
I held a very low opinion of Quentin’s work at the time and thereby came into direct conflict of opinion with Rhys who constantly argued that he would come good and it would all work out for the best in the end. Eventually I would up seriously questioning Rhys’s judgment on the whole issue and refused to discuss it at all. This was all aggravated further by what I saw had to be done to clean up what I called a “total mess” at the time.
I was quite angry at the time with Rhys for his unceasing work to keep Quentin “out of the shit” as I put it at the time. I held that it was a waste of effort and that, (rightly it seems) he was cutting himself short in favour of someone who would never repay the debt. To be honest I thought Quentin should have been held accountable for the mess he left behind. As it was, very few ever knew of it and he took full advantage of the situation to better his own situation in a manner which I found unwarranted and vulgar.
Frankly, I was as obliging as I could be on this issue in my articulated response to whether or not I would support Quentin in organizing a second event and was attacked for it in many ways. This was not all that surprising to me. As the desires of my Patron of the time had been fulfilled, (the conference had occurred – along with several other things) I took steps to distance myself from what I considered an odious duty. All things considered at the time, I treated him quite fairly at the time compared to what I would have preferred to have made public as opposed to what I said in private.
Still, all that said – it was now nearly a decade ago - *Shrugs* I rarely even think on it now days. At the end of the day, I consider it simply a matter that one refers to with the words: “It was war and in war all manner of unpleasant things occur – all rather common place really.”
Sat Feb 24, 2001 2:57 pm
Message #15204 of 35699
Re: [BrisbaneWitch] Re: food for thought
G'day there Bill,
>seemed enamoured with Bill Liddell. Bill Liddell and one Ryse Owen, a
Was this the same Ryse who caused a bit of trouble with the finances of Pagan'99 before you took it over?
>my opinion, much to its detriment. Bill Liddell and Ryse Owen were
>bosum buddies with.. wait for it.. Yes the infamous slease bag..
Well, for obvious reasons I shan't go into that topic here.
>Danny Searl. Scott, to his credit, always knew Danny was an arsehole,
>and treated him accordingly. Hell, IMO Alex Saunders was a big enough
>bull shit artist.. but Bill Liddell and this "Pickengil" stuff...
I wonder why then, that Scott couldn't see through them.
Perhaps they were notso overt as Danny?
In addition to that which I have already stated on this subject, my main objection to Danny was that he lied bald facedly to me even after I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I was aware of it. Frankly, yes I did not like him or what he stood for and this was compounded and escalated by his actions. I suppose that had I not been so busy with all else at the time, I may well have decided to look further at Danny. Perhaps had I done so some information may have come to light earlier than it did but frankly, at the time the fact that he lied was enough – I did not require to know the whole of WHAT he lied about to act as I did.
I have never had to “see through” Bill and Rhys because they have always been frank with me. They have not manipulated me, lied to me nor failed to ask me directly when they have head rumours about me. I will also say that neither have ever been reticent when I have queried them on rumours I have heard about them.
I've not read the Pickengil stuff yet. I was going to reservejudgement until I'd had a read of it, but now I'll not bother. If it's bullshitI don't need to read it. My mind has enough crap in it already =).
I don’t think I need to say that I’d disagree with anyone who said it is “bull shit” – being a Pickingill initiate. However I would have to add as well that I don’t think that any of the corpus of information would be really of any use to anyone who approached it not actually wanting to determine it’s validity for themselves so I guess it remains as always six of one half dozen of another. Luckily it is no skin off our noses who believes what.
>The whole shitfight between House Asteroth and Old Proff Q, was
>fuelled by B.L. and R.O., who, IMO, used Scott and his group to
>punish Q for what, in their perception, was "Stealing their idea"
Rather childish, but I guess physical age needn't be connected to maturity.
I could, perhaps here say something scathing along the lines of “just like rumour mongering without verifying the whole of the issue” but really that would be childish. I will simply say here that most people will only ever know what they can find out from limited sources and sit happy at that point. If one is given incomplete data the picture one comes to is likewise incomplete – it is only to be expected. He problem is that this happens all too often and one side of any story is frankly only strengthened when it is all that is heard. That is partly why I am answering these queries now.
>when Q put on Pagan 98. (Wonder what they think of me for taking the
>whole Qld Pagan Festival thing and running with it?) I believe R.O.
Whatever they think, they don't seem to be making it obvious.
They probablydon't care since, in effect, you adopted it from Q not from them.
As I remember it from the time, all I heard from either party was basically that they hoped that they (Bill’s group) knew what they were getting into and that perhaps it would be done better this time with the new people at the helm.
>has parted with House Asteroth now... In fact I believe H.A. is
>actually now defunct.I dunno if that's a good thing or not.
I don't really have any informationother than what I've already stated and regardless of the quoted statements,it's not really enough on which to base an opinion.
Frankly, I am pleasantly edified to hear such a fair assessment. Speaking for myself I think it is a good and a bad thing that the House is now defunct. It had some very good things I think that the modern movement as a whole could have benfitted from but by the same token it had served its purpose and so therefore is better done with. In my experience groups that have outlived their purpose and yet linger on tend to fester and cause more harm than good. To my mind groups without purpose can be every bit as troublesome as groups with delibeate intent to create trouble – sometimes more so.
> I sincerely hope Scott Leedham and Darren.. the
I don't know which one is who. I met a slenderish young bloke who I think mighthave had blond hair. Regardless of hair colour he had some connection to acomputer company and it was because of that connection that he made the offer ofproviding webspace.
That would have been Sam. His family were starting out in the web space sales area and he was willing to set up a working space for those of like mind in the area to show their colours. Indeed at one stage there was even talk of various other projects that could be done with it to various ends, but obviously these were all scrapped due to the circumstance of the time.
I thought it was a good idea, and actually voted for it butit appeared that there were very few people inclined to give their group seriousconsideration. I dunno why, they seemed quite intelligent and regardless of theconsensus, they WERE a part of the pagan community & hence entitled to expresstheir beliefs. I guess "Pagan" doesn't always equal "Open Minded".
Indeed it does not and another reason is, (as I have already stated) the meeting was largely a sham and the votes were skewed. There would not have been a snow ball’s chance in hell of anything we put forward being voted yes on – numbers were called from all over and we were largely vilified, before, during and after.
The inclusionist sentiments here I do applaud but by the time this meeting had come about there was hardly even any reason left to give lip service to them. The reins of the horse were being firmly steered away from such notions. It was something of a one man band by this stage that was being supported by many who were being deliberately misinformed.
To be honest, in hindsight we should have been more transparent in our reasoning and actions but well, we weren’t and so for quite some time there was only one side to be heard. Several people suffered because of this but to be honest at the time, we were uninterested in the fortunes of those who weren’t part of our own circles.
Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:41
Message #15205 of 35699
Re: food for thought
To be completely fair, as far as I know neither Bill Liddell or RyseOwen were up to the same things as Danny... ever..And I mustappologise profusely if my post gave that impression.. But they must,surely have known about it and still stood by him against those whosought to bring him down.. and for that, they, at the very least,must be guilty of stupidity.
Actually they both played a part in Danny’s fracturing and demise and I remember several conversations each which involved musings over how some sort of punitive action may occur were someone to take such an idea and run with it. I will however, say frankly, it was a long time ago and what they did and did not know and what they did or did not do about it would be stories for them to tell – I can only speak for myself and give suppositions based on what meager information I have regarding the event that I was nowhere near.
Young Dave Campbell has gone down in my books as someone with at least a good sense of right and wrong.. he snotted Danny and that incesteous little creep that was hisoffsider.. and that's more than the rest of us did really.. We waitedfor more conventional means of retribution.. less chance of fallingfoul of assault charges.. But full marks David!!
I am unsure if punching Danny and his offsider qualify someone as having a good sense of right and wrong, indeed I remember Dave as being quite fuzzy and malleable on those particular moral stances – then again I had more to do with him eventually than most of the rest of the occult community at the time, indeed his group was even allied to ours briefly in order to achieve a couple of works for mutual benefit.
All that said, this is, a part of that long and involved tale that was those days that I can tell some things about as I do know some things about it that very few others do. Perhaps time that it was told. Way back when we were all working in the early days of Pagan 98, I was kept on as an unofficial liaison between the whole and certain other groups considered to be Left Hand Path. Indeed it was in this capacity that I met and began having dealings with the Hereditary Barbarians in the first place.
Now one of the things we made very clear to Rhys was that if any of the LHP Groups made any contact, or vice versa they should be referred on to us and we would take care of the arrangements. We did this because we had already seen the total and utter chaos of offence that had resulted from any of the standard groups when they attempted to communicate with even some of the more gregarious groups to the Left of Center – us included.
The idea was that we would be go betweens and ensure that those with a mind to attending would do so in an orderly, non vengeful sort of way. We would regulate communications between the different factions and ensure than no unintended slights or offence was caused – either way.
Whether people believe it or not, it is surprisingly easy and simple to make enemies in this fashion. Just as the average new age wiccan can hardly comprehend why saying “Blessed Be” and hugging someone they don’t know can be considered grounds for attack so too did many of those I knew of not understand why yelling out “IA!” Or “Hail Satan!” was considered inappropriate forms to express joy at a meeting – much less a ritual.
Besides all this, frankly the masses knew very little about what groups were out there and as I pointed out: “It could be bad if we get an attendance of some group that have not so pleasant political leanings turning up flying colours wouldn’t it?” To be precise, I was bent on making sure that some of “our freer cousins” would not be too unruly or make us look bad in public and that some of our more “upright” cousins would not unintentionally begin anything that may end poorly while the public eye was on us.
Due to this I had to query Rhys when he gleefully announced that a LHP group was coming on board that I already had some small knowledge of. It was termed the “Black Rose” and was headed by an individual called David Campbell. As I pointed out to Rhys, there were indeed some groups out there that would simply love to infiltrate something like this and pull it apart and besides, what did he know of them really? What customs did he know and how would he control them were they to get out of hand? A touch crestfallen he conceded that he didn’t know and I had to say that there was now not much we could do either! Were we to have bought them in, we could make use of various forms of hospitality to regulate them a touch but as we were kept out of the loop it would now really be up to him to handle whatever happened.
Over time we did what we could to figure out where this group would fit and set about harnessing them subtly so that some measure of prediction could be made about what they would do in any particular happenstance. Indeed eventually we succeeded in getting David to ally his group with our own. Over time we discovered many things that we would not share with the wider community as it was obvious to us, (and my Patron informed me) that they could be of use. They were ostensibly a group of “foot soldiers” vastly more accomplished in the field of spreading fear and destabilisation than any form of pagan or occult practice.
Their leader had presented us with stolen credentials that presented him as a Master Mason. He was obviously not old enough to be so and he did not come bearing any of the marks or passwords of that rank, but to be honest, in the beginning, it was not overly an issue as we were more interested in discovering who they were to the end of pacification or rejection. It became increasingly obvious that the leader was ignorant of many basic protocols of many of the occult forms he claimed mastery of.
His methods were crude and surprisingly simple to penetrate once basic surveillance was begun. The training, (and that word should be used very loosely) that his group was given was largely Crowleyanity, (without any form of actual accomplishment) an odd assortment of Hoodoo styled Voudou borrowings, the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Simon’s Necronomicon. This was largely hidden by his continual stressing a hatred for these things so the students would not investigate and see them in the original format.
We set about championing several distorted and diluted forms of created tradition and then allowed him to take them on whole cloth. We allowed these forms to saturate his group and mould them to our ends. In this manner their skills could be useful and they could be relied on to not do anything too rash lest these obvious short comings become publicly embarrassing by way of proclamation. This may sound really harsh to some people but I will point out here that we were dealing with a group that were known for beatings, stand over tactics, blitz like street attacks and so on. Frankly, the idea of this bunch being let loose among the many highly naive groups at the time gave me the terrors. To be blunt, it was a public relations nightmare just waiting to happen. When you are faced with something like that and you tell them “to get lost” – they simply try harder. The fact was they were “in” now and we moved into high gear damage control so as to keep everything on the “up and up”. In this sort of situation you need to harness them subtly and steer them off to somewhere that they can be safely contained until needed or the gig is over and done with.
As far as Danny was concerned, I suppose given the circumstance I should be careful what I say. I would hardly say that I was involved, (even were it so) as such could conceivably get me in hot water. Suffice to say I expect that several of us, when we had enough information to satisfy ourselves imagined that some sort of public example should be made out of him and were none too quiet about our views. Naturally, we could not really have anything directly to do with it. There was simply some discussion as to what sort of thing might be called for, what might send a suitable message out to the rest of the community and so on in various quarters as I remember. I personally was all for something much like what happened. I would say here though that this would hardly make me “involved” in the proceedings.
I for example, (who rumour has it) have something of a turbulent past could hardly have done what did happen – it would be too simple for me to get in hot water with the constabulary. After all, I didn’t like him, I had a vested interest in getting rid of him and had a bad background who many say involve many such stand over tactics – who would be able to defend against that? I would have been one of the first suspects wouldn’t I? I had then and still have a fairly high amount of personal pride when I say for various scrapes I have a spotless record – I like to keep it that way. It should furthermore be also said that whatever the truth of my past, by this stage such outright action I considered very gauche – I vastly preferred manipulation.
So I will say that I did not have any direct hand in it although I reckon I have a fair idea how it would have unfolded. Theoretically and hypothetically, I would imagine that if someone might have expressed some wish to this end in front of certain persons who were itching to make an example out of someone of this kind, it could be considered that it would be well over half way to being done.
After all, I mean you wouldn’t be able to use just anyone – it would have to be someone like the persons who did the attack to fit the bill. Someone you know would want to do the job, especially want to do it for you were you to wish to have it done, someone who’d do it quick, well, and then vanish. It would, (I expect) help if that person was largely expendable if they got caught.
It would have to be someone publicly recognizable as hailing with certain quarters of the community well known for ruthlessness. Then I suppose you would have to sweeten the deal in some way – promise him something shiny and important for the work he would want to do anyway and then express a wish that something of like nature would occur. In that way I expect theoretically it could be argued that you didn’t actually order the action, or even ask for it to be done, you’d just mused out loud and it occurred. Simply a pleasing coincidence.
Of course as I remember it, the details of that rite that this occurred at was not publicly known soo .. I guess then you would need someone who was connected in with the people putting it on to leak the information as to the “when and where”. If you had that then, it could be done just right and quite dramatically.
That information would then have to be filtered through another group, who, (theoretically) would have to be much like the one I had. That way the original source could remain safe, outside proceedings with deniability and a convenient boogey man to point to in extremis. Of course you wouldn’t want this too widely known inside the group, just probably by the leader and say – a trusted offsider.
They would then, (I imagine) pass that same info on to the person, (like the one who did the deed on the night in question) at the last minute and give the go ahead … ohhh possibly through some sort of mobile phone. I imagine were I to know anyone who would orchestrate such a thing they’d do it something like that – hypothetically of course.
Anyhow, to round off this section, I don’t know that I would champion Dave Campbell for his actions, any more than anyone I had ever known to get into a fist fight and lie about whatever whenevr it suited him to do so. I would think quietly more to the point that there must have been more than him involved.
Probably someone to set it all up would be needed and that same someone may well have had something of a vested interest in thinking themselves part of something of a heirachy – the word coming from someone much older perhaps, (those sort of cloak and dagger sorts often do that sort of thing and act that way I am told) Hey I am a suspicious guy like that.
Cant comment on whyScott couldn't see through R.O and B.L.. last time I heard fromScott.. he had fallen out with R.O.
I actually had something of a largely unwarranted bunfight with Rhys as certain projects he was working on came into direct conflict with certain projects of mine. I decided, (quite arbitrarily at the time) that expediency was best served by getting him right the hell away from everything I was connected to. The best way to do that was to have a fight. It helped enormously that I was very distracted at the time and pissy about half a dozen things. It was most certainly not fair all things told, but hey “them’s the breaks” we all do things for reasons and sometimes morals and the right thing to do are the first casualties.
I've not read the Pickengil stuff yet. I was going to reservejudgement until I'd had a read of it, but now I'll not bother. Ifit's bullshit I don't need to read it. My mind has enough crap in italready =).
I dont know K.. I would recomend reading it and making up your ownmind.. it may have some merit in certain areas.. but as a whole, mostknowledgeable craft people reject most of it.
I have whole other sections on this sentiment and think I will leave it at that.
> >The whole shitfight between House Asteroth and Old Proff Q, was
> >fuelled by B.L. and R.O., who, IMO, used Scott and his group to
> >punish Q for what, in their perception, was "Stealing their idea"
>> Rather childish, but I guess physical age needn't beconnected to maturity.
Nope!! that's for sure.. and there is no fool sillier than an oldfool.
Indeed, but I am told that having whole stories helps immeasurably in avoiding looking like a fool. Hopefully that is something we can all avoid these days.
... In fact I believe H.A. is actually now defunct.
>> I dunno if that's a good thing or not.
I don't really haveany information other than what I've already stated and regardless ofthe quoted statements, it's not really enough on which to base anopinion.I wouldn't like to comment on that either.. let's just say I would beof two minds.
Well thankfully these days I can comment on it and have above. For my own part I say good riddance. It taught me many things and the experience was definitely something I would do again in the same place and time as it has partly made me what I am today BUT – now that I am where I am – I have no further need of it.
> I don't know which one is who. I met a slenderish young blokewho I think might have had blond hair. Regardless of hair colour hehad some connection to a computer company and it was because of thatconnection that he made the offer of providing webspace.
That was young Sam.. nice enough young guy.. he broke from H.A, sometime before it broke up.. some dissagreement or another believe.
Actually Sam was put in much the same position that was posited that I was in by Dave and Matt. He attempted to take control of the House. I allowed it and then called for a vote. He ran the House for something like five minutes until the other members voted with their feet in answer to the question I put to them, namely:
“Anyone who thinks that Sam can do this job as well as or better than me stand next to him and everyone else – come over this side of the room.”
As I said at the time, I stand by today, it was an object lesson as to why students do not challenge their elders – they are generally at least two steps ahead at all times.
> Eeeeewww... I've no doubt that it would be interesting,but I have the proverbial snowball in the desert's chance ofremembering, understanding, or learning from it. I'll let you keepthe records.
Yeah well good records are very handy at times.
They most certainly are and we are of the same mind as to many of their uses. These days I am a bit more forthcoming than ever I was when I was running the House. This is simply because I do not have to toe the party line, I speak only for myself and no longer have to keep secrets for the House. I certainly ma a happier lad these days and hope that some of these things being known will make some others understand some things better. I always find that helps promote contentment.
And contentment is something I feel now that this has finally been said. Catharsis I expect - well I may yet try it again some day! I will leave the last words to others ... the least I can do.
Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:25
Message #15207 of 35699
Re: Re: food for thought
G'day there BIll,
>of.. The "Gentleman" who took the money from the treasury of Pagan
>99, was one A W.. I do believe though, he thought he was
Hmm... I dunno where I got the idea it was Ryse. I probably just heard Qtalking about him somewhere.
>taking Q's money, and was justified in doing so..( they never didHe may well have had a grievance but it's a bit difficult to justify stealingthe money.
Especially when it wasn't Q's to begin with, it belonged to the P'99fund.
>believe we had taken the thing over lock stock and barrel.) he did
Did they think you were going to put on half a festival?.
I think that, ifanything, they were probably just trying to validate a lack of ethics on theirpart.
>associated with him.. I can only suppose he felt justified in doing
>that because of some percieved "Wrongs" on Q's part, although just
>what they were was never made clear to me.. However: to this day he
Well, much as I like Q, he does have an unhappy knack of ruffling feathers.Still, there are more accepted methods of recourse available.
>of his groups, or us.. both being solitaries.. both still are..
>wonder how he justifies that??? And I must add our monies were only
I'd hazard a guess that he doesn't bother trying.
>returned in response to some rather nasty promises I made to him
>about what would occur if the money raised by our group wan't
>returned.
Appealed to his good nature, did you Bill?
>To be completely fair, as far as I know neither Bill Liddell or Ryse
>Owen were up to the same things as Danny... ever..And I must
>appologise profusely if my post gave that impression.. But they must,
No you hadn't given that impression. Just that they had rather flexible ethics,not necessarily in the same way.
>must be guilty of stupidity. Young Dave Campbell has gone down in my
>books as someone with at least a good sense of right and wrong.. he
>snotted Danny and that incesteous little creep that was his
>offsider.. and that's more than the rest of us did really.. We waited
Never met Dave. Never even heard of him until now. It's a pity that some onedidn't do it years ago, and a lot of Danny's activities might never havehappened.
>Scott couldn't see through R.O and B.L.. last time I heard from
>Scott.. he had fallen out with R.O.
It's pretty well moot now. A bit of a pity I guess. Some of the "colour" &variety gone.
>I've not read the Pickengil stuff yet. I was going to reserve
>I dont know K.. I would recomend reading it and making up your own
>mind.. it may have some merit in certain areas.. but as a whole, most
>knowledgeable craft people reject most of it.
I'm not that knowledgeable =). I've got the web page d/l'd here somewhere. I'llhave a bit of a read through there, but I doubt I'll buy the book.
>That was young Sam.. nice enough young guy.. he broke from H.A, some
>time before it broke up.. some dissagreement or another believe.
Yeah, he seemed pretty decent. His statements about holding the rest of us incontempt came across as a set piece, as though he was reciting dogma. Theredidn't seem to be any emotion behind it.
>dont agree on much at all... Still, anyone or any orginization that
>professes to be for the "Community" must represent ALL, not selected
>parts.That's what struck me at the time.
The group was supposed to be representativeand, if I remember correctly, made some sort of comments about being inclusiveand considering the needs of all. Some of the comments made about HO, not madeopenly I must admit, certainly didn't represent any possibility of inclusion.Several people there were downright abusive, but none made their statementspublicly.
>Yeah well good records are very handy at times.
Of that I've no doubt. Perhaps you should write your memiors one day =).
>Look forward to seeing you again sometime... Bill W.
Sigh... don't hold your breath. Back to work tomorrow. Dammit!!
Take care
Lotsa luv
Never thirst
K
None the less it was all a long time ago and now, unlike then I am free and have a mind to explain some things. No one wanted to hear it but I felt it made an interesting exercise anyhow so I did it for this wee corner of my mind. Some of the questions you will see posed directly or indirectly here have been asked repeatedly for years. Perhaps it is time to answer them so they can be laid to rest.
I have taken out the names of those who asked the questions to protect the innocent and the not so innocent. I have left some names in where there could be no case of it being detrimental or where it is public record and required for understanding. Basically where it is my story I will say what should be said but those who asked for the tale can remain safely anaonymous. I have no ill will towards them but they perhaps would not want to be mentioned here so … leave it as is.
Some of the things spoken of here in are being done so for the very first time. All the things that happened did so nearly a decade ago and so I reckon it is safe to talk about it now. Some people might get riled about some of this but hey – it was a decade ago and now I have finally answered the questions so let’s move on.
Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:31
Message #15160 of 35699
Re: food for thought
Hi K.. As you saw by the previous url you found.. young Scottseemed enamoured with Bill Liddell. Bill Liddell and one Ryse Owen, aself styled Cabalist, were regular associates of House Asteroth..
Now here I will have to explain a fair bit. I would ask you, my dear readers to bear in mind that some of this has never even been discussed by me before outside of the time and a very small group – many of whom only ever got told bits and pieces. Should I sound a bit stilted, it will be largely due to the fact that it is still weird to me to be saying openly what was going on.
It is very true that we had quite a bit to do with both of these people among many others than this or that person would find .. at best unsavoury. Indeed I think I can say with total surety that many of the people we had dealings with were at loggerheads for this reason or that reason – often at the same time.
In my opinion, much to its detriment. Bill Liddell and Ryse Owen werebosum buddies with.. wait for it.. Yes the infamous slease bag..Danny Searl.
I am unsure that is entirely accurate. Since the “get go”, (so to speak) Bill had reservations regarding Danny beyond those he had for everyone. Indeed in the later times, I know for a fact that Bill was aware of several of the actions that finally fractured Danny’s group. The details of this I will not further comment on. It should be remembered that Bill was not public at the time for various reasons – not the least of which being family commitments.
Rhys I remember expressing his reservations as early as the first time I met Danny at the open meeting to discuss whether or not it would be a good idea to have a conference. All three of us were aware that he was “skating close to unacceptable in some manners”, (as I remember putting it at the time) but had nothing really to go on. As all those concerned in the early days of the conference had their own peccadilloes and secrets we left it at that. The idea was to get people together – all else would become known and be reckoned with later.
I clearly remember that we all agreed that most other groups would contain pasts and practices that we, (collectively and singly) would disagree with in one way or another. It should not be construed from this that there was any collusion between Danny and any of us. Collusion between the three of extended as far as we agreeing, technically, on principle that a conference would be a good idea and that if it were not as inclusive as it could be – there would be no point in even having one. As I remember it, the conference was Rhys’s baby and he pitched to several people. I was bought on quite early because I had done similar things on a smaller scale and Bill was included due to his background and seniority. There was selective contact between us all the whole time.
Scott, to his credit, always knew Danny was an arsehole,and treated him accordingly.
My first contact with Danny was at the open meeting that was held at some hall somewhere near the city – I don’t remember its name. I remember on that day the question arose of safety and Danny put it forward, (I believe) that the whole could conceivably contradict the whole notion of “not leading one’s own brothers and sisters into danger” and that furthermore the notion of perhaps having to make a physical stand would contradict: “An’ it harm none”. I remember pointing out to him that not all present were Wiccan by any stretch of the imagination. I can remember vividly looking at him and thinking that I did not like him. He had a particular air about him that I instinctively distrusted and that set my teeth on edge.
In the time I worked with others toward Pagan ’98, I found myself opposed to him on several occasions, (beyond my public dislike of the modern “wiccan” ethos at the time) and often found myself wondering at his cavalier attitude on certain issues. I remember at one meeting him claiming that he had a “newspaper reporter in his pocket”. I queried this in strenuous terms simply with the words: “Does that mean the same thing when you say it as it does when I say it? Can you silence him if needs be?” Suffice to say I made no particular secret of the fact that I disliked and distrusted him and as memory serves he made no bones of his stance either.
The whole of this culminated at one meeting when, (and I am unsure now how this came about) he made quite a big deal of his being a “third degree” to me. In that moment I knew why I disliked him and made it clear when I stated outright that what he had said was “Bullshit” and that it was patently obvious to anyone with any real experience that he had not “carried the spirit” in his life. In short he did not have the “mark” – he was lying and I stand today beside that assessment.
There would be further events to do with Danny but I will deal with that later when it comes up.
Hell, IMO Alex Saunders was a big enoughbull shit artist.. but Bill Liddell and this "Pickengil" stuff...
I’ll leave that as it stands. It is common knowledge that everyone thinks themselves ahead of any other at the end of the day and the political tides of time make some statements that were certainly expedient at the time inconvenient now. Here we have words from long ago when I happen to know, Bill had not looked into the subject much. It was also weel before Bill explained any of the parts people did not understand and largely exploded the whole "no one takes it seriously" line. I have dealt with it elsewhere and am not done yet - so we'll leave it there for the moment.
The whole shitfight between House Asteroth and Old Proff Q, wasfuelled by B.L. and R.O., who, IMO, used Scott and his group topunish Q for what, in their perception, was "Stealing their idea"when Q put on Pagan 98.
No not really. There is a lot of extra stuff that happened that Bill at that time was totally unaware of.
In my estimation, based on what I saw and what I heard from many sources, Quentin did a first rate shoddy job of organizing the first conference. In my opinion then and now, he made a complete hash of it and there was a hell of a lot of covering and cleaning up that Rhys did for Quentin at the time so that very few people knew about it.
For my own part I had argued with Rhys from the get go about Quentin who I had thought form the start to be not made of the required stuff to carry out the job properly and in a manner I would consider above board and professionally. I was also concerned that his public statements were driving some people way which again, was not the desired outcome. I remember that Rhys felt quite put upon at one stage as not only I and Bill but others as well were berating him, (rightly or wrongly) for what they felt was a poor choice.
I do remember one discussion with Rhys when he made it clear that he felt that his original idea had been totally lost. By this he meant not lost to anyone else but rather that what he had tried to give life to had become unrecognizable and was now serving other agendas. I also know that Bill had reservations about the idea as a whole and very quickly washed his hands of it to a large degree when the stories of what was going on began to come to light.
(Wonder what they think of me for taking thewhole Qld Pagan Festival thing and running with it?) I believe R.O.has parted with House Asteroth now... In fact I believe H.A. isactually now defunct. I sincerely hope Scott Leedham and Darren.. thethree surviving members, fare well and manage to survive to becomeelders themselves one day.. All three were nice enough guys really..
By this time the House was indeed defunct. Leedham was teaching his student Elizabeth and Darren had moved with his fiancée. Leedham had been training Elizabeth earlier as an adjunct to the House and then afterwards when I officially handed her over to him as an apprentice. I did this in the last days of the House when I could no longer devote the required attention to her well being and progress. Darren was living the quiet life and had little public contact. What either are doing these days would be for them to relate.
the thing with Q was something they were, well sort of, Gee-ed up toget involved in... Ya want the low down on all the "Who did what andwhen, and to whom" of the Pagan community? I got it all; going backdecades.... Bill W.
Much of it perhaps and now with what will be in here, hopefully these last additions make some of it now make sense. Indeed Bill and I have spoken of this all three years ago and notably were some words spoken to the effect of this same notion. The idea that I was somehow “egged into” conflict with Quentin by Rhys and Bill is simply inaccurate although I have no doubt that this story was related to Bill by various peoples for reasons best explained by their own agendas.
The whole time we were working on the Pagan 98, Rhys was defending Quentin to me in one way or another and as far as I recall, Bill very quickly decided that the whole thing was a waste. Indeed Rhys even tried to defend Quentin’s actions to me when he threw us all out of the Ritual Committee – which resulted in some very curt responses from me about Rhys’ “soft touch approach” not wanting to cost me anything further.
I held a very low opinion of Quentin’s work at the time and thereby came into direct conflict of opinion with Rhys who constantly argued that he would come good and it would all work out for the best in the end. Eventually I would up seriously questioning Rhys’s judgment on the whole issue and refused to discuss it at all. This was all aggravated further by what I saw had to be done to clean up what I called a “total mess” at the time.
I was quite angry at the time with Rhys for his unceasing work to keep Quentin “out of the shit” as I put it at the time. I held that it was a waste of effort and that, (rightly it seems) he was cutting himself short in favour of someone who would never repay the debt. To be honest I thought Quentin should have been held accountable for the mess he left behind. As it was, very few ever knew of it and he took full advantage of the situation to better his own situation in a manner which I found unwarranted and vulgar.
Frankly, I was as obliging as I could be on this issue in my articulated response to whether or not I would support Quentin in organizing a second event and was attacked for it in many ways. This was not all that surprising to me. As the desires of my Patron of the time had been fulfilled, (the conference had occurred – along with several other things) I took steps to distance myself from what I considered an odious duty. All things considered at the time, I treated him quite fairly at the time compared to what I would have preferred to have made public as opposed to what I said in private.
Still, all that said – it was now nearly a decade ago - *Shrugs* I rarely even think on it now days. At the end of the day, I consider it simply a matter that one refers to with the words: “It was war and in war all manner of unpleasant things occur – all rather common place really.”
Sat Feb 24, 2001 2:57 pm
Message #15204 of 35699
Re: [BrisbaneWitch] Re: food for thought
G'day there Bill,
>seemed enamoured with Bill Liddell. Bill Liddell and one Ryse Owen, a
Was this the same Ryse who caused a bit of trouble with the finances of Pagan'99 before you took it over?
>my opinion, much to its detriment. Bill Liddell and Ryse Owen were
>bosum buddies with.. wait for it.. Yes the infamous slease bag..
Well, for obvious reasons I shan't go into that topic here.
>Danny Searl. Scott, to his credit, always knew Danny was an arsehole,
>and treated him accordingly. Hell, IMO Alex Saunders was a big enough
>bull shit artist.. but Bill Liddell and this "Pickengil" stuff...
I wonder why then, that Scott couldn't see through them.
Perhaps they were notso overt as Danny?
In addition to that which I have already stated on this subject, my main objection to Danny was that he lied bald facedly to me even after I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I was aware of it. Frankly, yes I did not like him or what he stood for and this was compounded and escalated by his actions. I suppose that had I not been so busy with all else at the time, I may well have decided to look further at Danny. Perhaps had I done so some information may have come to light earlier than it did but frankly, at the time the fact that he lied was enough – I did not require to know the whole of WHAT he lied about to act as I did.
I have never had to “see through” Bill and Rhys because they have always been frank with me. They have not manipulated me, lied to me nor failed to ask me directly when they have head rumours about me. I will also say that neither have ever been reticent when I have queried them on rumours I have heard about them.
I've not read the Pickengil stuff yet. I was going to reservejudgement until I'd had a read of it, but now I'll not bother. If it's bullshitI don't need to read it. My mind has enough crap in it already =).
I don’t think I need to say that I’d disagree with anyone who said it is “bull shit” – being a Pickingill initiate. However I would have to add as well that I don’t think that any of the corpus of information would be really of any use to anyone who approached it not actually wanting to determine it’s validity for themselves so I guess it remains as always six of one half dozen of another. Luckily it is no skin off our noses who believes what.
>The whole shitfight between House Asteroth and Old Proff Q, was
>fuelled by B.L. and R.O., who, IMO, used Scott and his group to
>punish Q for what, in their perception, was "Stealing their idea"
Rather childish, but I guess physical age needn't be connected to maturity.
I could, perhaps here say something scathing along the lines of “just like rumour mongering without verifying the whole of the issue” but really that would be childish. I will simply say here that most people will only ever know what they can find out from limited sources and sit happy at that point. If one is given incomplete data the picture one comes to is likewise incomplete – it is only to be expected. He problem is that this happens all too often and one side of any story is frankly only strengthened when it is all that is heard. That is partly why I am answering these queries now.
>when Q put on Pagan 98. (Wonder what they think of me for taking the
>whole Qld Pagan Festival thing and running with it?) I believe R.O.
Whatever they think, they don't seem to be making it obvious.
They probablydon't care since, in effect, you adopted it from Q not from them.
As I remember it from the time, all I heard from either party was basically that they hoped that they (Bill’s group) knew what they were getting into and that perhaps it would be done better this time with the new people at the helm.
>has parted with House Asteroth now... In fact I believe H.A. is
>actually now defunct.I dunno if that's a good thing or not.
I don't really have any informationother than what I've already stated and regardless of the quoted statements,it's not really enough on which to base an opinion.
Frankly, I am pleasantly edified to hear such a fair assessment. Speaking for myself I think it is a good and a bad thing that the House is now defunct. It had some very good things I think that the modern movement as a whole could have benfitted from but by the same token it had served its purpose and so therefore is better done with. In my experience groups that have outlived their purpose and yet linger on tend to fester and cause more harm than good. To my mind groups without purpose can be every bit as troublesome as groups with delibeate intent to create trouble – sometimes more so.
> I sincerely hope Scott Leedham and Darren.. the
I don't know which one is who. I met a slenderish young bloke who I think mighthave had blond hair. Regardless of hair colour he had some connection to acomputer company and it was because of that connection that he made the offer ofproviding webspace.
That would have been Sam. His family were starting out in the web space sales area and he was willing to set up a working space for those of like mind in the area to show their colours. Indeed at one stage there was even talk of various other projects that could be done with it to various ends, but obviously these were all scrapped due to the circumstance of the time.
I thought it was a good idea, and actually voted for it butit appeared that there were very few people inclined to give their group seriousconsideration. I dunno why, they seemed quite intelligent and regardless of theconsensus, they WERE a part of the pagan community & hence entitled to expresstheir beliefs. I guess "Pagan" doesn't always equal "Open Minded".
Indeed it does not and another reason is, (as I have already stated) the meeting was largely a sham and the votes were skewed. There would not have been a snow ball’s chance in hell of anything we put forward being voted yes on – numbers were called from all over and we were largely vilified, before, during and after.
The inclusionist sentiments here I do applaud but by the time this meeting had come about there was hardly even any reason left to give lip service to them. The reins of the horse were being firmly steered away from such notions. It was something of a one man band by this stage that was being supported by many who were being deliberately misinformed.
To be honest, in hindsight we should have been more transparent in our reasoning and actions but well, we weren’t and so for quite some time there was only one side to be heard. Several people suffered because of this but to be honest at the time, we were uninterested in the fortunes of those who weren’t part of our own circles.
Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:41
Message #15205 of 35699
Re: food for thought
To be completely fair, as far as I know neither Bill Liddell or RyseOwen were up to the same things as Danny... ever..And I mustappologise profusely if my post gave that impression.. But they must,surely have known about it and still stood by him against those whosought to bring him down.. and for that, they, at the very least,must be guilty of stupidity.
Actually they both played a part in Danny’s fracturing and demise and I remember several conversations each which involved musings over how some sort of punitive action may occur were someone to take such an idea and run with it. I will however, say frankly, it was a long time ago and what they did and did not know and what they did or did not do about it would be stories for them to tell – I can only speak for myself and give suppositions based on what meager information I have regarding the event that I was nowhere near.
Young Dave Campbell has gone down in my books as someone with at least a good sense of right and wrong.. he snotted Danny and that incesteous little creep that was hisoffsider.. and that's more than the rest of us did really.. We waitedfor more conventional means of retribution.. less chance of fallingfoul of assault charges.. But full marks David!!
I am unsure if punching Danny and his offsider qualify someone as having a good sense of right and wrong, indeed I remember Dave as being quite fuzzy and malleable on those particular moral stances – then again I had more to do with him eventually than most of the rest of the occult community at the time, indeed his group was even allied to ours briefly in order to achieve a couple of works for mutual benefit.
All that said, this is, a part of that long and involved tale that was those days that I can tell some things about as I do know some things about it that very few others do. Perhaps time that it was told. Way back when we were all working in the early days of Pagan 98, I was kept on as an unofficial liaison between the whole and certain other groups considered to be Left Hand Path. Indeed it was in this capacity that I met and began having dealings with the Hereditary Barbarians in the first place.
Now one of the things we made very clear to Rhys was that if any of the LHP Groups made any contact, or vice versa they should be referred on to us and we would take care of the arrangements. We did this because we had already seen the total and utter chaos of offence that had resulted from any of the standard groups when they attempted to communicate with even some of the more gregarious groups to the Left of Center – us included.
The idea was that we would be go betweens and ensure that those with a mind to attending would do so in an orderly, non vengeful sort of way. We would regulate communications between the different factions and ensure than no unintended slights or offence was caused – either way.
Whether people believe it or not, it is surprisingly easy and simple to make enemies in this fashion. Just as the average new age wiccan can hardly comprehend why saying “Blessed Be” and hugging someone they don’t know can be considered grounds for attack so too did many of those I knew of not understand why yelling out “IA!” Or “Hail Satan!” was considered inappropriate forms to express joy at a meeting – much less a ritual.
Besides all this, frankly the masses knew very little about what groups were out there and as I pointed out: “It could be bad if we get an attendance of some group that have not so pleasant political leanings turning up flying colours wouldn’t it?” To be precise, I was bent on making sure that some of “our freer cousins” would not be too unruly or make us look bad in public and that some of our more “upright” cousins would not unintentionally begin anything that may end poorly while the public eye was on us.
Due to this I had to query Rhys when he gleefully announced that a LHP group was coming on board that I already had some small knowledge of. It was termed the “Black Rose” and was headed by an individual called David Campbell. As I pointed out to Rhys, there were indeed some groups out there that would simply love to infiltrate something like this and pull it apart and besides, what did he know of them really? What customs did he know and how would he control them were they to get out of hand? A touch crestfallen he conceded that he didn’t know and I had to say that there was now not much we could do either! Were we to have bought them in, we could make use of various forms of hospitality to regulate them a touch but as we were kept out of the loop it would now really be up to him to handle whatever happened.
Over time we did what we could to figure out where this group would fit and set about harnessing them subtly so that some measure of prediction could be made about what they would do in any particular happenstance. Indeed eventually we succeeded in getting David to ally his group with our own. Over time we discovered many things that we would not share with the wider community as it was obvious to us, (and my Patron informed me) that they could be of use. They were ostensibly a group of “foot soldiers” vastly more accomplished in the field of spreading fear and destabilisation than any form of pagan or occult practice.
Their leader had presented us with stolen credentials that presented him as a Master Mason. He was obviously not old enough to be so and he did not come bearing any of the marks or passwords of that rank, but to be honest, in the beginning, it was not overly an issue as we were more interested in discovering who they were to the end of pacification or rejection. It became increasingly obvious that the leader was ignorant of many basic protocols of many of the occult forms he claimed mastery of.
His methods were crude and surprisingly simple to penetrate once basic surveillance was begun. The training, (and that word should be used very loosely) that his group was given was largely Crowleyanity, (without any form of actual accomplishment) an odd assortment of Hoodoo styled Voudou borrowings, the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Simon’s Necronomicon. This was largely hidden by his continual stressing a hatred for these things so the students would not investigate and see them in the original format.
We set about championing several distorted and diluted forms of created tradition and then allowed him to take them on whole cloth. We allowed these forms to saturate his group and mould them to our ends. In this manner their skills could be useful and they could be relied on to not do anything too rash lest these obvious short comings become publicly embarrassing by way of proclamation. This may sound really harsh to some people but I will point out here that we were dealing with a group that were known for beatings, stand over tactics, blitz like street attacks and so on. Frankly, the idea of this bunch being let loose among the many highly naive groups at the time gave me the terrors. To be blunt, it was a public relations nightmare just waiting to happen. When you are faced with something like that and you tell them “to get lost” – they simply try harder. The fact was they were “in” now and we moved into high gear damage control so as to keep everything on the “up and up”. In this sort of situation you need to harness them subtly and steer them off to somewhere that they can be safely contained until needed or the gig is over and done with.
As far as Danny was concerned, I suppose given the circumstance I should be careful what I say. I would hardly say that I was involved, (even were it so) as such could conceivably get me in hot water. Suffice to say I expect that several of us, when we had enough information to satisfy ourselves imagined that some sort of public example should be made out of him and were none too quiet about our views. Naturally, we could not really have anything directly to do with it. There was simply some discussion as to what sort of thing might be called for, what might send a suitable message out to the rest of the community and so on in various quarters as I remember. I personally was all for something much like what happened. I would say here though that this would hardly make me “involved” in the proceedings.
I for example, (who rumour has it) have something of a turbulent past could hardly have done what did happen – it would be too simple for me to get in hot water with the constabulary. After all, I didn’t like him, I had a vested interest in getting rid of him and had a bad background who many say involve many such stand over tactics – who would be able to defend against that? I would have been one of the first suspects wouldn’t I? I had then and still have a fairly high amount of personal pride when I say for various scrapes I have a spotless record – I like to keep it that way. It should furthermore be also said that whatever the truth of my past, by this stage such outright action I considered very gauche – I vastly preferred manipulation.
So I will say that I did not have any direct hand in it although I reckon I have a fair idea how it would have unfolded. Theoretically and hypothetically, I would imagine that if someone might have expressed some wish to this end in front of certain persons who were itching to make an example out of someone of this kind, it could be considered that it would be well over half way to being done.
After all, I mean you wouldn’t be able to use just anyone – it would have to be someone like the persons who did the attack to fit the bill. Someone you know would want to do the job, especially want to do it for you were you to wish to have it done, someone who’d do it quick, well, and then vanish. It would, (I expect) help if that person was largely expendable if they got caught.
It would have to be someone publicly recognizable as hailing with certain quarters of the community well known for ruthlessness. Then I suppose you would have to sweeten the deal in some way – promise him something shiny and important for the work he would want to do anyway and then express a wish that something of like nature would occur. In that way I expect theoretically it could be argued that you didn’t actually order the action, or even ask for it to be done, you’d just mused out loud and it occurred. Simply a pleasing coincidence.
Of course as I remember it, the details of that rite that this occurred at was not publicly known soo .. I guess then you would need someone who was connected in with the people putting it on to leak the information as to the “when and where”. If you had that then, it could be done just right and quite dramatically.
That information would then have to be filtered through another group, who, (theoretically) would have to be much like the one I had. That way the original source could remain safe, outside proceedings with deniability and a convenient boogey man to point to in extremis. Of course you wouldn’t want this too widely known inside the group, just probably by the leader and say – a trusted offsider.
They would then, (I imagine) pass that same info on to the person, (like the one who did the deed on the night in question) at the last minute and give the go ahead … ohhh possibly through some sort of mobile phone. I imagine were I to know anyone who would orchestrate such a thing they’d do it something like that – hypothetically of course.
Anyhow, to round off this section, I don’t know that I would champion Dave Campbell for his actions, any more than anyone I had ever known to get into a fist fight and lie about whatever whenevr it suited him to do so. I would think quietly more to the point that there must have been more than him involved.
Probably someone to set it all up would be needed and that same someone may well have had something of a vested interest in thinking themselves part of something of a heirachy – the word coming from someone much older perhaps, (those sort of cloak and dagger sorts often do that sort of thing and act that way I am told) Hey I am a suspicious guy like that.
Cant comment on whyScott couldn't see through R.O and B.L.. last time I heard fromScott.. he had fallen out with R.O.
I actually had something of a largely unwarranted bunfight with Rhys as certain projects he was working on came into direct conflict with certain projects of mine. I decided, (quite arbitrarily at the time) that expediency was best served by getting him right the hell away from everything I was connected to. The best way to do that was to have a fight. It helped enormously that I was very distracted at the time and pissy about half a dozen things. It was most certainly not fair all things told, but hey “them’s the breaks” we all do things for reasons and sometimes morals and the right thing to do are the first casualties.
I've not read the Pickengil stuff yet. I was going to reservejudgement until I'd had a read of it, but now I'll not bother. Ifit's bullshit I don't need to read it. My mind has enough crap in italready =).
I dont know K.. I would recomend reading it and making up your ownmind.. it may have some merit in certain areas.. but as a whole, mostknowledgeable craft people reject most of it.
I have whole other sections on this sentiment and think I will leave it at that.
> >The whole shitfight between House Asteroth and Old Proff Q, was
> >fuelled by B.L. and R.O., who, IMO, used Scott and his group to
> >punish Q for what, in their perception, was "Stealing their idea"
>> Rather childish, but I guess physical age needn't beconnected to maturity.
Nope!! that's for sure.. and there is no fool sillier than an oldfool.
Indeed, but I am told that having whole stories helps immeasurably in avoiding looking like a fool. Hopefully that is something we can all avoid these days.
... In fact I believe H.A. is actually now defunct.
>> I dunno if that's a good thing or not.
I don't really haveany information other than what I've already stated and regardless ofthe quoted statements, it's not really enough on which to base anopinion.I wouldn't like to comment on that either.. let's just say I would beof two minds.
Well thankfully these days I can comment on it and have above. For my own part I say good riddance. It taught me many things and the experience was definitely something I would do again in the same place and time as it has partly made me what I am today BUT – now that I am where I am – I have no further need of it.
> I don't know which one is who. I met a slenderish young blokewho I think might have had blond hair. Regardless of hair colour hehad some connection to a computer company and it was because of thatconnection that he made the offer of providing webspace.
That was young Sam.. nice enough young guy.. he broke from H.A, sometime before it broke up.. some dissagreement or another believe.
Actually Sam was put in much the same position that was posited that I was in by Dave and Matt. He attempted to take control of the House. I allowed it and then called for a vote. He ran the House for something like five minutes until the other members voted with their feet in answer to the question I put to them, namely:
“Anyone who thinks that Sam can do this job as well as or better than me stand next to him and everyone else – come over this side of the room.”
As I said at the time, I stand by today, it was an object lesson as to why students do not challenge their elders – they are generally at least two steps ahead at all times.
> Eeeeewww... I've no doubt that it would be interesting,but I have the proverbial snowball in the desert's chance ofremembering, understanding, or learning from it. I'll let you keepthe records
Yeah well good records are very handy at times.
They most certainly are and we are of the same mind as to many of their uses. These days I am a bit more forthcoming than ever I was when I was running the House. This is simply because I do not have to toe the party line, I speak only for myself and no longer have to keep secrets for the House. I certainly ma a happier lad these days and hope that some of these things being known will make some others understand some things better. I always find that helps promote contentment.
And contentment is something I feel now that this has finally been said. Catharsis I expect - well I may yet try it again some day! I will leave the last words to others ... the least I can do.
Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:25
Message #15207 of 35699
Re: Re: food for thought
G'day there BIll,
>of.. The "Gentleman" who took the money from the treasury of Pagan
>99, was one A W.. I do believe though, he thought he was
Hmm... I dunno where I got the idea it was Ryse. I probably just heard Qtalking about him somewhere.
>taking Q's money, and was justified in doing so..( they never didHe may well have had a grievance but it's a bit difficult to justify stealingthe money.
Especially when it wasn't Q's to begin with, it belonged to the P'99fund.
>believe we had taken the thing over lock stock and barrel.) he did
Did they think you were going to put on half a festival?
I think that, ifanything, they were probably just trying to validate a lack of ethics on theirpart.
>associated with him.. I can only suppose he felt justified in doing
>that because of some percieved "Wrongs" on Q's part, although just
>what they were was never made clear to me.. However: to this day he
Well, much as I like Q, he does have an unhappy knack of ruffling feathers.Still, there are more accepted methods of recourse available.
>of his groups, or us.. both being solitaries.. both still are..
>wonder how he justifies that??? And I must add our monies were only
I'd hazard a guess that he doesn't bother trying.
>returned in response to some rather nasty promises I made to him
>about what would occur if the money raised by our group wan't
>returned.
Appealed to his good nature, did you Bill?
>To be completely fair, as far as I know neither Bill Liddell or Ryse
>Owen were up to the same things as Danny... ever..And I must
>appologise profusely if my post gave that impression.. But they must,
No you hadn't given that impression. Just that they had rather flexible ethics,not necessarily in the same way.
>must be guilty of stupidity. Young Dave Campbell has gone down in my
>books as someone with at least a good sense of right and wrong.. he
>snotted Danny and that incesteous little creep that was his
>offsider.. and that's more than the rest of us did really.. We waited
Never met Dave. Never even heard of him until now. It's a pity that some onedidn't do it years ago, and a lot of Danny's activities might never havehappened.
>Scott couldn't see through R.O and B.L.. last time I heard from
>Scott.. he had fallen out with R.O.
It's pretty well moot now. A bit of a pity I guess. Some of the "colour" &variety gone.
>I've not read the Pickengil stuff yet. I was going to reserve
>I dont know K.. I would recomend reading it and making up your own
>mind.. it may have some merit in certain areas.. but as a whole, most
>knowledgeable craft people reject most of it.
I'm not that knowledgeable =). I've got the web page d/l'd here somewhere. I'llhave a bit of a read through there, but I doubt I'll buy the book.
>That was young Sam.. nice enough young guy.. he broke from H.A, some
>time before it broke up.. some dissagreement or another believe.
Yeah, he seemed pretty decent. His statements about holding the rest of us incontempt came across as a set piece, as though he was reciting dogma. Theredidn't seem to be any emotion behind it.
>dont agree on much at all... Still, anyone or any orginization that
>professes to be for the "Community" must represent ALL, not selected
>parts.That's what struck me at the time.
The group was supposed to be representativeand, if I remember correctly, made some sort of comments about being inclusiveand considering the needs of all. Some of the comments made about HO, not madeopenly I must admit, certainly didn't represent any possibility of inclusion.Several people there were downright abusive, but none made their statementspublicly.
>Yeah well good records are very handy at times.
Of that I've no doubt. Perhaps you should write your memiors one day =).
>Look forward to seeing you again sometime... Bill W.
Sigh... don't hold your breath. Back to work tomorrow. Dammit!!
Take care
Lotsa luv
Never thirst
K
posted by BissekArt at 6:17 pm
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