More of the same Guv ...
You know I do TRY to be even handed when I see things about I really do.
When Bill first posted in the Pagan Network boards it was to correct a chap whose hilarity at the idea of George’s Nine was echoed by our own at HIS ideas.
He was of the opinion that it was all ridiculous because (and I will quote so I don’t get it wrong or get accused of being overly tart about it!):
The Assumption is that George RAN nine groups and that these same groups must meet up with you “an absolute minimum of 17 times a year” and other assorted things. It then follows on from there to posit that each coven must be at least three miles apart! That is a lot of assumptions!
The argument is that the whole Pickingill premise is absurd because he would not be able to do so even by horse and cart.
Funny really because we thought his post was funny.
You see, IF George ran nine groups and they were three miles each apart and he would have had to visit the amount of times this chap assumes it would indeed be pretty amazing!
But here are the clinchers:
Now you may ask how I know this. Have I studied the Pickingill Papers? Am I really that old? No indeed!
I will tell you how I know.
I know because I am a part of that line and I am in pretty much the same situation as they were to him!! I know because I was bought into the line, initiated and given my authority. As such, does Bill run my rituals, run my group or settle disputes in my house – no sir!
You see, when I was given my initiation I was connected to the Gods and guides of the line. To be perfectly honest in our line it is stressed that you are a part of the line down from George and that the real honest likeness is that you are connected to the some of the same entities that he was, and to him. THIS is why you can’t be a part of the line by way of self identification – you are a part of this line if you are made a part of it by one who IS a part of it. It is also stressed that if you have these connections you need nothing else. If you want to know something – ask the elders, ask the guides, and ask the gods and they will tell you what you should know. I can tell you for a fact that is exactly how it works.
When I was tutored I was given a few odds and sods that the line has used over the years and a few pointers on interpretation and so on. You will note that I have said NOTHING about the rites of seasonal celebrations and so on. The reason for this is simply, that if we want to do so we’d make one up based on what the guides tell us and our own proclivities and be done with it.
They are by no means mandatory as far as we are concerned. I now say, (so there can be no confusion on this issue) there ARE NO Pickingill rituals for such things – secret or otherwise!! We are NOT required to do any such things!
Some line siblings I know of have been given such things by Bill and do them but I stress now that these are things that they have asked him for. These people came from a NeoPagan past that they had not entirely shaken off and felt needs for such things even though they are aware that our line has no such requirement. As we have no proscription against such things he has put together this sort of thing to satisfy their needs.
When I was given my authority I was given my authority. What this means is that I can go out, initiate others, found groups, and run them as *I* see fit. As I have been given my connections I am theoretically capable of accessing all the same information that my Elders are. I am also able to access the knowledge of our line Elders and the assistance of them and our Guides and Gods. This means that those concerned with our line have signified their acceptance of the idea that I am capable of “going it alone” and not “screwing up” too hard. The “sign off” facet of my being granted my authority was simply the part where my existing elders conducted a ritual in order to ratify this and formalise certain connections.
It is also worth noting here that while I was given a copy of a couple of rituals to enact these same things – they are simply written ritual that has in it all the things that were required for such. There are again, NO secret Pickingill initiation, dedication or confirming rituals. What occurs is what our guides and gods require of us. They will tell us what is required and we will do it and it will work. If we have not the wit or the skill to hear and follow as the information comes, we have these written outlines that we have been told is acceptable too – but really that is also pretty straightforwardly a case of “you get told what to do and so you do it and it works”.
As this is all the case, and that is the way Bill did it and the way he was told to do it and so on back, that is the way the line does it. From time to time some new innovations have been added, collected or discovered but frankly, if what you have works why bother overly? This is what works, it is what my Elders taught me and what they taught me was taught them. I put it to you that if such was the case in George’s case it wouldn’t make any difference if the nine groups were three or thirty miles apart, whether he travelled by foot or monorail. They were autonomous, individual groups of people who had recourse to George as they required his say so and assistance to join his line and very little else.
I realise this must sound alien to those who come from a modern neopagan wiccan derived background but well, with any luck it may, (if they consider such) enlighten them as to why they fail totally to comprehend much connected to this line and why often much of their assumptions on what they think they have a handle on leads them to places totally alien to us!
That is why I am going to have a look at the following wee screed by “AmberLady”.
Just so as you know I am NOT quoting out of context and so on, the piece I will be looking at is @: http://the-amberlady.livejournal.com/ noted Jan 18 2008-02-03
It says in its entirety …
I have a particular interest in the story of George Pickingill, partly because I align my self with the Essex Cunning folk and partly because I used to live in George’s home village of Canewdon.
From our point of view aligning ones self is all good and well but that doesn’t make it so. As I understand it A.L has claimed that one of her bloodline back was a Cunning Man in the area. That gives some small of credit but unless she has inherited some powers or her clientele or materials and so on from them – it really doesn’t count for much any more than having lived in an area. Many people have lived in that area – are they all Cunning Folk or Witches – of course not. Still, as far as an explanation of her interest it is better than fair comment.
Canewdon is a small village outside of Southend-on-Sea situated on high ground overlooking the marshes around the mouth of the river Crouch an area rich in stories of ghosts and witches, Canewdon itself used to boast the title of the most Haunted village in England and during my time there in the late 70s it was a magnet for ghost hunters who flocked there each Halloween to camp out in the churchyard or visit the nearby Anchor Inn. During my time there the most popular story was that anyone who run around the church tower three times anticlockwise at midnight would meet the Devil, there was also a number of houses who boasted ghosts and the Landlord of the Anchor would happily spend the evening telling tales of cold spots in the bar and mysterious moving glasses etc.
This is fair enough though one wonders how much, (if any) of this is attributable to the articles that would later be collected as the Pickingill Papers and vice versa. There is also the problem of the fact that the village, (from time to time) would indeed be buzzing, (for or against) on many kindred subjects due to outsiders asking questions of the locals. This of course includes Amber Lady who says she asked vigorously at the time of her living there, of earlier people such as Eric Maple, Bill Liddell or earlier of Bea Howe amongst others.
I say this as it is a favourite that is retreated to half heartedly by many who wish, (when it suits them) to claim that locals tell any old thing to outsiders (but not to them of course – they know the “real deal”!) and were never averse to making up whatever they felt like simply for the lark. This is a stretch and its selective use betrays it as the naive stalling technique that it is.
It is an interesting point that in the early days of enquiry, many of the stories were quite matter of fact that the witches were in Canewdon and what they could do. It is only later when the older people have thinned out and been replaced by later people more relying on study and research that the stories become metaphoric, comparative and folk lore related. Some theories have been advanced for this but one I have not seen, (though it seems more commonsensical than any other I have encountered!) is simply that as the years went on no one wants to be associated with the backward embarrassing superstitions of their predecessors.
The fact that it would have been seen also as encouraging more strange outsiders to come and poke into “their own affairs” also is something of a given. The more talk, the more people come and no matter what the objection, anyone who has lived in a small village knows that outsiders are rarely welcomed – especially when they profess to these sort of interests!
Occasionally a local would also tell the story of Old George, a farm labourer who lived to a great age and was thought of as a witch, even more occasionally somebody would mention the story that while the church tower stood there would be witches in Canewdon even though several other Essex village boast the same including nearby Hadleigh home of James (Cunning) Murrell whose story was well known among local folklorist and historians.
This is, (if taken as read) something of a “hedged bet”. The locals knew about Old George and that he was thought of as a “witch”. That there were witches in the area and that they were in some way connected with the church tower. Fair comment and worth noting. The fact that other villages in the area had similar stories is not surprising to anyone who has looked into the area though I note here that it is presented in a way to imply some doubt on the earlier assertion.
I wonder why the fact that the alleged witches of the area shared certain characteristics, or indeed, (if one wishes to be technical about it) that certain local tales *involving* witches sharing certain characteristics should be considered to shed doubt on those of a particular area? I would have though that the very opposite was more likely. Note that I do not imply it proves anything at all – rather simply that, “the jigsaw piece that fits the gap probably goes there”.
This same theme starts to verge on the objection often raised that Old George could not have been as some of the stories paint him because he was illiterate. The answer to this is as simple as it is ignored. There were more than one George Pickingill in the area and indeed even more than one with the sort of local notoriety we hear of. George Junior was indeed illiterate and plied trade as a horse whisperer but the George we speak of as the head of our line was the George Senior who was the Rom horse trader. The fact remains that such a person as George Junior could NOT fit the other stories; so which is more likely - that these obviously impossible stories were created by people about someone who could not possibly fit the bill or that they referred to another? When considered objectively it becomes obvious that the stories cannot all be related about George Junior and so must refer to George Senior. This does not stop some insisting that it is all about George Junior though as it is a convenient “out” for them.
Many people object even in the face of this common sense in this way insisting that he was said to be illiterate. As they insist upon referring to the illiterate and hearing of nothing else it is no surprise that they have difficulty with any of the other ideas. After all how can an illiterate be a cunning man? All of which aside, not one yet has managed to come up with a satisfactory response to the question: “Illiterate he was considered? Who do you reckon would know better – the local gossips or the family itself?”
It is well worth noting that much of Bill’s original information on the George we speak of (Senior from Norfolk) came from his own family and when it comes down to what that George could and could not do I’d be more inclined to believe his family than local folklore. Local folklore, (as many of the detractors are fond of reminding us) can be notoriously inaccurate! Naturally at this point the problem is raised that such can not be proved as if that were the final nail in our coffins. Rarely are these people happy to be told that we have asserted THAT as fact from the very beginning. There will *never* be proof, (for or against) and that makes it almost as maddening as the fact that his practice was anomalous to the point of confounding conventional pigeon holing. It is in fact just as well that we have little interest in “proving” our beliefs to others. We correct others when they say we have implied something we have not or where what they say is patently incorrect within our knowledge or the Pickingill corpus but that is hardly the same thing. We are interested in the information being “out there” for some to believe and most to NOT believe – and all to come to their own conclusions on. That in fact suits us best.
I left Canewdon for the last time in 1981 and you can imagine my surprise when after entering the wild and wacky world of Internet Paganism I began reading stories of George Pickingill of Canewdon who apparently was not just a witch, but the leader of not just a local coven, but nine of them.
This first line is telling as it speaks of internet paganism. Frankly I have seen many silly things on the net and yet I do not dismiss what I see on the internet because of it. I presume that A.L is capable of assessing each thing she encounters objectively as I am though I sometimes wonder at her posts and articles.
She expresses incredulity here that she encounters more information than that which the locals may tell her in the local Inns and so forth. This is fair comment. I would argue though that she has allowed this to stand in the way of objectivity. I will now examine the next points she makes carefully as I feel they are important to take one by one.
I would point out that she was aware he was thought of as a witch and told so by the locals so why would it be inconceivable that he was a coven master? It certainly doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to me. There were witches and he was one – not so hard to believe that he may have had rank too.
Now as for the claim of other covens, well she states that she was clear on the fact that other villages in the area supposedly had covens – why is it so hard to believe that there may have been connections between them? Most certainly many of the villages in the area were fairly insular at the time and some even openly hostile to their neighboring villages but “amongst thieves comes secrets”. It is also known for it Rom visits and as such it is certainly not anything much outside of probable that there were those well disposed to other influences than simple village loyalty. To be clear it is clear to anyone with even a modicum of study of the area that there are connections of various sorts between villages by way of guild and so on – why not witches too?
All this aside, I MUST stress one point here that A.L may have not, (at the time) been guilty of but by now she can be considered to be. She says here that he was apparently not just a witch … but the leader of nine of them.
Now at the time (and given some of the implication skew that goes on via “Chinese whispers”, sensationalism and the internet – it is easy to believe!) she may very well have believed that it was meant that he ran nine covens but this has since been dismissed. Old George could be considered to be the leader of the nine covens only so far as he initiated those who went on to form and run those groups. He did not officiate as Priest or any other such modernism. A.L can not be aware of this if she has been paying attention – though given what I have seen of her flatly ignoring anything that does not fit her preconceived notion of an illiterate labourer it is not inconceivable that she has missed this.
He was no ordinary witch, apparently his fame and notoriety spread far and wide and magicians and sorcerers came from all over to consult with him, then came the claim that one of George’s nine covens was no more then the famous New forest coven that initiated Gerald Gardner, making George nothing more then the founder of Wicca.
I will assume that A.L doubts this first part that he was famous and notorious even though her contacts with the locals show that he was known of. That he may have been known of and word may have traveled in those circles the locals were not privy to, (I would assume) she likewise doubts. The fact that we know he was a Rom descent makes it quite clear how very easily word of him could spread and it should be stated that to believe one’s own meager reputation will not spread, (no matter how small or insular one’s circle of friends is) is something that history shows to be naïve in the extreme.
Furthermore, even though A.L does not state this it has been claimed that he acted as a local cunning man as well. If this was the case, (and it is by far a decent bet that such an image would be better in terms of financial and physical security than “local witch”!) it is in no way inconceivable that this name would spread if he was any good at all and the idea of consultation is something of a given.
It is often claimed that one could not be a witch and a cunning man as the two were often at loggerheads but it is also worth remembering that the main reason for the cunning folk’s antagonism to the local witches was due to the fact that they would allow no competition – and the fact that it was the local witches they blamed everything on! As even Steve Wilson wryly noted, the one could become the other given even a subtle change in social climate.
That the New Forest Coven that Gerald allegedly had contact with was a part of the Pickingill line I do not dispute. I likewise do not dispute that some of the practices were the sort accepted by the mainstay of the line. I do not find it difficult to believe that Gerald was initiated and perhaps even given his authority by that coven. That which Gerald promulgated as “Wica” or even “Wicca” however bears much resemblance except in some basal points is something I find difficult to accept given it’s stress in odd areas of practice and belief – though it is conceivable that this is personal bias on my behalf. Not all of the Pickingill descended covens work the same way, nor with the same guides or even for the same ends so it is a difficult prospect at best to be sure.
One thing I AM sure of however is that in our persuasion, one would never claim that Old George was the founder of Wicca simply because Gerald was initiated into a coven descended from one of the Pickingill Nine! Even if Gerald had been one of the Pickingill Nine, “Wica” would still have been his creation and he its founder.
This may seem a small thing to harp on but it has far reaching consequences. In order for Old George to be considered the founder of Wicca it would have had to have been his innovation. While most certainly there were certain ideas that George gave to some of the Nine that could be considered to be necessary for one of his down line to come up with something in form or substance that resembles “wica” is NOT enough for him to be considered its founder. Suffice to say that whether or not Old George would have found modern wiccan practice or belief pleasant or even recognizable is irrelevant – he was not it’s founder.
To be honest and as fair as I can be; it would seem that AmberLady confuses what many have said with what we say and what she wants to believe. This I would argue is not conducive to understanding any stance other than the one she has already settled on. It would forestall hearing anything of interest and note and this, (I should expect) explains why we would not attempt to convince her of anything let alone try reasoning on this subject.
Most certainly confusing what others have said we say and what we say is the reason we attempted some rectification via the website in the first place. Upon noting that many others also seem to confuse what we say with what they believe and thereby arrive at a thoroughly negative stance on ANYTHING said .... is it any wonder that we have long since given up on virtually all of the reasons that most of these same think we continue for?
When Bill first posted in the Pagan Network boards it was to correct a chap whose hilarity at the idea of George’s Nine was echoed by our own at HIS ideas.
He was of the opinion that it was all ridiculous because (and I will quote so I don’t get it wrong or get accused of being overly tart about it!):
Now this is all quite interesting as it shows the level of understanding this individual has about this line.George Pickingill is not only a fable, but an absurd one. Just give it a try yourself:
You have nine groups of people and you must meet with each of them an absolute minimum of 17 times in the year. You must also attend numerous other functions, settle arguments, ect ...To do this you must walk or more likely find a horse drawn conveyance.
None of these groups is closer than three miles to any of the others.
Give it a whirl.
The Assumption is that George RAN nine groups and that these same groups must meet up with you “an absolute minimum of 17 times a year” and other assorted things. It then follows on from there to posit that each coven must be at least three miles apart! That is a lot of assumptions!
The argument is that the whole Pickingill premise is absurd because he would not be able to do so even by horse and cart.
Funny really because we thought his post was funny.
You see, IF George ran nine groups and they were three miles each apart and he would have had to visit the amount of times this chap assumes it would indeed be pretty amazing!
But here are the clinchers:
• He did not run nine covensYou see over the course of his life he initiated nine who then went off and ran their own covens. They were pretty much antonymous though they most certainly looked up to him and would have been loathe to cross any of the precepts he gave them or act in ways that they thought he would disapprove of. They had no necessity of “celebrating sabbats” or any other such festivities with or without him. They would not have contacted him to settle disputes unless it was absolutely necessary and then it would probably more in the way of giving his weight to a decision more than anything else.
• He did not have to meet up with any of them
repeatedly for sabbats
• He did not have to meet up with any of them
repeatedly for solving disputes etc
Now you may ask how I know this. Have I studied the Pickingill Papers? Am I really that old? No indeed!
I will tell you how I know.
I know because I am a part of that line and I am in pretty much the same situation as they were to him!! I know because I was bought into the line, initiated and given my authority. As such, does Bill run my rituals, run my group or settle disputes in my house – no sir!
You see, when I was given my initiation I was connected to the Gods and guides of the line. To be perfectly honest in our line it is stressed that you are a part of the line down from George and that the real honest likeness is that you are connected to the some of the same entities that he was, and to him. THIS is why you can’t be a part of the line by way of self identification – you are a part of this line if you are made a part of it by one who IS a part of it. It is also stressed that if you have these connections you need nothing else. If you want to know something – ask the elders, ask the guides, and ask the gods and they will tell you what you should know. I can tell you for a fact that is exactly how it works.
When I was tutored I was given a few odds and sods that the line has used over the years and a few pointers on interpretation and so on. You will note that I have said NOTHING about the rites of seasonal celebrations and so on. The reason for this is simply, that if we want to do so we’d make one up based on what the guides tell us and our own proclivities and be done with it.
They are by no means mandatory as far as we are concerned. I now say, (so there can be no confusion on this issue) there ARE NO Pickingill rituals for such things – secret or otherwise!! We are NOT required to do any such things!
Some line siblings I know of have been given such things by Bill and do them but I stress now that these are things that they have asked him for. These people came from a NeoPagan past that they had not entirely shaken off and felt needs for such things even though they are aware that our line has no such requirement. As we have no proscription against such things he has put together this sort of thing to satisfy their needs.
When I was given my authority I was given my authority. What this means is that I can go out, initiate others, found groups, and run them as *I* see fit. As I have been given my connections I am theoretically capable of accessing all the same information that my Elders are. I am also able to access the knowledge of our line Elders and the assistance of them and our Guides and Gods. This means that those concerned with our line have signified their acceptance of the idea that I am capable of “going it alone” and not “screwing up” too hard. The “sign off” facet of my being granted my authority was simply the part where my existing elders conducted a ritual in order to ratify this and formalise certain connections.
It is also worth noting here that while I was given a copy of a couple of rituals to enact these same things – they are simply written ritual that has in it all the things that were required for such. There are again, NO secret Pickingill initiation, dedication or confirming rituals. What occurs is what our guides and gods require of us. They will tell us what is required and we will do it and it will work. If we have not the wit or the skill to hear and follow as the information comes, we have these written outlines that we have been told is acceptable too – but really that is also pretty straightforwardly a case of “you get told what to do and so you do it and it works”.
As this is all the case, and that is the way Bill did it and the way he was told to do it and so on back, that is the way the line does it. From time to time some new innovations have been added, collected or discovered but frankly, if what you have works why bother overly? This is what works, it is what my Elders taught me and what they taught me was taught them. I put it to you that if such was the case in George’s case it wouldn’t make any difference if the nine groups were three or thirty miles apart, whether he travelled by foot or monorail. They were autonomous, individual groups of people who had recourse to George as they required his say so and assistance to join his line and very little else.
I realise this must sound alien to those who come from a modern neopagan wiccan derived background but well, with any luck it may, (if they consider such) enlighten them as to why they fail totally to comprehend much connected to this line and why often much of their assumptions on what they think they have a handle on leads them to places totally alien to us!
That is why I am going to have a look at the following wee screed by “AmberLady”.
Just so as you know I am NOT quoting out of context and so on, the piece I will be looking at is @: http://the-amberlady.livejournal.com/ noted Jan 18 2008-02-03
It says in its entirety …
Now I will show how different our views are by addressing this from the point of view we tend to have. Indeed I can see how some of the ideas surrounding the Pickingill corpus is hard to believe if one comes from a modern view but it all quite simple when viewed the way we do.I have a particular interest in the story of George Pickingill, partly because I align my self with the Essex Cunning folk and partly because I used to live in George’s home village of Canewdon.
Canewdon is a small village outside of Southend-on-Sea situated on high ground overlooking the marshes around the mouth of the river Crouch an area rich in stories of ghosts and witches, Canewdon itself used to boast the title of the most Haunted village in England and during my time there in the late 70s it was a magnet for ghost hunters who flocked there each Halloween to camp out in the churchyard or visit the nearby Anchor Inn. During my time there the most popular story was that anyone who run around the church tower three times anticlockwise at midnight would meet the Devil, there was also a number of houses who boasted ghosts and the Landlord of the Anchor would happily spend the evening telling tales of cold spots in the bar and mysterious moving glasses etc.Occasionally a local would also tell the story of Old George, a farm labourer who lived to a great age and was thought of as a witch, even more occasionally somebody would mention the story that while the church tower stood there would be witches in Canewdon even though several other Essex village boast the same including nearby Hadleigh home of James (Cunning) Murrell whose story was well known among local folklorist and historians.
I left Canewdon for the last time in 1981 and you can imagine my surprise when after entering the wild and wacky world of Internet Paganism I began reading stories of George Pickingill of Canewdon who apparently was not just a witch, but the leader of not just a local coven, but nine of them. He was no ordinary witch, apparently his fame and notoriety spread far and wide and magicians and sorcerers came from all over to consult with him, then came the claim that one of George’s nine covens was no more then the famous New forest coven that initiated Gerald Gardner, making George nothing more then the founder of Wicca.
I have a particular interest in the story of George Pickingill, partly because I align my self with the Essex Cunning folk and partly because I used to live in George’s home village of Canewdon.
From our point of view aligning ones self is all good and well but that doesn’t make it so. As I understand it A.L has claimed that one of her bloodline back was a Cunning Man in the area. That gives some small of credit but unless she has inherited some powers or her clientele or materials and so on from them – it really doesn’t count for much any more than having lived in an area. Many people have lived in that area – are they all Cunning Folk or Witches – of course not. Still, as far as an explanation of her interest it is better than fair comment.
Canewdon is a small village outside of Southend-on-Sea situated on high ground overlooking the marshes around the mouth of the river Crouch an area rich in stories of ghosts and witches, Canewdon itself used to boast the title of the most Haunted village in England and during my time there in the late 70s it was a magnet for ghost hunters who flocked there each Halloween to camp out in the churchyard or visit the nearby Anchor Inn. During my time there the most popular story was that anyone who run around the church tower three times anticlockwise at midnight would meet the Devil, there was also a number of houses who boasted ghosts and the Landlord of the Anchor would happily spend the evening telling tales of cold spots in the bar and mysterious moving glasses etc.
This is fair enough though one wonders how much, (if any) of this is attributable to the articles that would later be collected as the Pickingill Papers and vice versa. There is also the problem of the fact that the village, (from time to time) would indeed be buzzing, (for or against) on many kindred subjects due to outsiders asking questions of the locals. This of course includes Amber Lady who says she asked vigorously at the time of her living there, of earlier people such as Eric Maple, Bill Liddell or earlier of Bea Howe amongst others.
I say this as it is a favourite that is retreated to half heartedly by many who wish, (when it suits them) to claim that locals tell any old thing to outsiders (but not to them of course – they know the “real deal”!) and were never averse to making up whatever they felt like simply for the lark. This is a stretch and its selective use betrays it as the naive stalling technique that it is.
It is an interesting point that in the early days of enquiry, many of the stories were quite matter of fact that the witches were in Canewdon and what they could do. It is only later when the older people have thinned out and been replaced by later people more relying on study and research that the stories become metaphoric, comparative and folk lore related. Some theories have been advanced for this but one I have not seen, (though it seems more commonsensical than any other I have encountered!) is simply that as the years went on no one wants to be associated with the backward embarrassing superstitions of their predecessors.
The fact that it would have been seen also as encouraging more strange outsiders to come and poke into “their own affairs” also is something of a given. The more talk, the more people come and no matter what the objection, anyone who has lived in a small village knows that outsiders are rarely welcomed – especially when they profess to these sort of interests!
Occasionally a local would also tell the story of Old George, a farm labourer who lived to a great age and was thought of as a witch, even more occasionally somebody would mention the story that while the church tower stood there would be witches in Canewdon even though several other Essex village boast the same including nearby Hadleigh home of James (Cunning) Murrell whose story was well known among local folklorist and historians.
This is, (if taken as read) something of a “hedged bet”. The locals knew about Old George and that he was thought of as a “witch”. That there were witches in the area and that they were in some way connected with the church tower. Fair comment and worth noting. The fact that other villages in the area had similar stories is not surprising to anyone who has looked into the area though I note here that it is presented in a way to imply some doubt on the earlier assertion.
I wonder why the fact that the alleged witches of the area shared certain characteristics, or indeed, (if one wishes to be technical about it) that certain local tales *involving* witches sharing certain characteristics should be considered to shed doubt on those of a particular area? I would have though that the very opposite was more likely. Note that I do not imply it proves anything at all – rather simply that, “the jigsaw piece that fits the gap probably goes there”.
This same theme starts to verge on the objection often raised that Old George could not have been as some of the stories paint him because he was illiterate. The answer to this is as simple as it is ignored. There were more than one George Pickingill in the area and indeed even more than one with the sort of local notoriety we hear of. George Junior was indeed illiterate and plied trade as a horse whisperer but the George we speak of as the head of our line was the George Senior who was the Rom horse trader. The fact remains that such a person as George Junior could NOT fit the other stories; so which is more likely - that these obviously impossible stories were created by people about someone who could not possibly fit the bill or that they referred to another? When considered objectively it becomes obvious that the stories cannot all be related about George Junior and so must refer to George Senior. This does not stop some insisting that it is all about George Junior though as it is a convenient “out” for them.
Many people object even in the face of this common sense in this way insisting that he was said to be illiterate. As they insist upon referring to the illiterate and hearing of nothing else it is no surprise that they have difficulty with any of the other ideas. After all how can an illiterate be a cunning man? All of which aside, not one yet has managed to come up with a satisfactory response to the question: “Illiterate he was considered? Who do you reckon would know better – the local gossips or the family itself?”
It is well worth noting that much of Bill’s original information on the George we speak of (Senior from Norfolk) came from his own family and when it comes down to what that George could and could not do I’d be more inclined to believe his family than local folklore. Local folklore, (as many of the detractors are fond of reminding us) can be notoriously inaccurate! Naturally at this point the problem is raised that such can not be proved as if that were the final nail in our coffins. Rarely are these people happy to be told that we have asserted THAT as fact from the very beginning. There will *never* be proof, (for or against) and that makes it almost as maddening as the fact that his practice was anomalous to the point of confounding conventional pigeon holing. It is in fact just as well that we have little interest in “proving” our beliefs to others. We correct others when they say we have implied something we have not or where what they say is patently incorrect within our knowledge or the Pickingill corpus but that is hardly the same thing. We are interested in the information being “out there” for some to believe and most to NOT believe – and all to come to their own conclusions on. That in fact suits us best.
I left Canewdon for the last time in 1981 and you can imagine my surprise when after entering the wild and wacky world of Internet Paganism I began reading stories of George Pickingill of Canewdon who apparently was not just a witch, but the leader of not just a local coven, but nine of them.
This first line is telling as it speaks of internet paganism. Frankly I have seen many silly things on the net and yet I do not dismiss what I see on the internet because of it. I presume that A.L is capable of assessing each thing she encounters objectively as I am though I sometimes wonder at her posts and articles.
She expresses incredulity here that she encounters more information than that which the locals may tell her in the local Inns and so forth. This is fair comment. I would argue though that she has allowed this to stand in the way of objectivity. I will now examine the next points she makes carefully as I feel they are important to take one by one.
I would point out that she was aware he was thought of as a witch and told so by the locals so why would it be inconceivable that he was a coven master? It certainly doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to me. There were witches and he was one – not so hard to believe that he may have had rank too.
Now as for the claim of other covens, well she states that she was clear on the fact that other villages in the area supposedly had covens – why is it so hard to believe that there may have been connections between them? Most certainly many of the villages in the area were fairly insular at the time and some even openly hostile to their neighboring villages but “amongst thieves comes secrets”. It is also known for it Rom visits and as such it is certainly not anything much outside of probable that there were those well disposed to other influences than simple village loyalty. To be clear it is clear to anyone with even a modicum of study of the area that there are connections of various sorts between villages by way of guild and so on – why not witches too?
All this aside, I MUST stress one point here that A.L may have not, (at the time) been guilty of but by now she can be considered to be. She says here that he was apparently not just a witch … but the leader of nine of them.
Now at the time (and given some of the implication skew that goes on via “Chinese whispers”, sensationalism and the internet – it is easy to believe!) she may very well have believed that it was meant that he ran nine covens but this has since been dismissed. Old George could be considered to be the leader of the nine covens only so far as he initiated those who went on to form and run those groups. He did not officiate as Priest or any other such modernism. A.L can not be aware of this if she has been paying attention – though given what I have seen of her flatly ignoring anything that does not fit her preconceived notion of an illiterate labourer it is not inconceivable that she has missed this.
He was no ordinary witch, apparently his fame and notoriety spread far and wide and magicians and sorcerers came from all over to consult with him, then came the claim that one of George’s nine covens was no more then the famous New forest coven that initiated Gerald Gardner, making George nothing more then the founder of Wicca.
I will assume that A.L doubts this first part that he was famous and notorious even though her contacts with the locals show that he was known of. That he may have been known of and word may have traveled in those circles the locals were not privy to, (I would assume) she likewise doubts. The fact that we know he was a Rom descent makes it quite clear how very easily word of him could spread and it should be stated that to believe one’s own meager reputation will not spread, (no matter how small or insular one’s circle of friends is) is something that history shows to be naïve in the extreme.
Furthermore, even though A.L does not state this it has been claimed that he acted as a local cunning man as well. If this was the case, (and it is by far a decent bet that such an image would be better in terms of financial and physical security than “local witch”!) it is in no way inconceivable that this name would spread if he was any good at all and the idea of consultation is something of a given.
It is often claimed that one could not be a witch and a cunning man as the two were often at loggerheads but it is also worth remembering that the main reason for the cunning folk’s antagonism to the local witches was due to the fact that they would allow no competition – and the fact that it was the local witches they blamed everything on! As even Steve Wilson wryly noted, the one could become the other given even a subtle change in social climate.
That the New Forest Coven that Gerald allegedly had contact with was a part of the Pickingill line I do not dispute. I likewise do not dispute that some of the practices were the sort accepted by the mainstay of the line. I do not find it difficult to believe that Gerald was initiated and perhaps even given his authority by that coven. That which Gerald promulgated as “Wica” or even “Wicca” however bears much resemblance except in some basal points is something I find difficult to accept given it’s stress in odd areas of practice and belief – though it is conceivable that this is personal bias on my behalf. Not all of the Pickingill descended covens work the same way, nor with the same guides or even for the same ends so it is a difficult prospect at best to be sure.
One thing I AM sure of however is that in our persuasion, one would never claim that Old George was the founder of Wicca simply because Gerald was initiated into a coven descended from one of the Pickingill Nine! Even if Gerald had been one of the Pickingill Nine, “Wica” would still have been his creation and he its founder.
This may seem a small thing to harp on but it has far reaching consequences. In order for Old George to be considered the founder of Wicca it would have had to have been his innovation. While most certainly there were certain ideas that George gave to some of the Nine that could be considered to be necessary for one of his down line to come up with something in form or substance that resembles “wica” is NOT enough for him to be considered its founder. Suffice to say that whether or not Old George would have found modern wiccan practice or belief pleasant or even recognizable is irrelevant – he was not it’s founder.
To be honest and as fair as I can be; it would seem that AmberLady confuses what many have said with what we say and what she wants to believe. This I would argue is not conducive to understanding any stance other than the one she has already settled on. It would forestall hearing anything of interest and note and this, (I should expect) explains why we would not attempt to convince her of anything let alone try reasoning on this subject.
Most certainly confusing what others have said we say and what we say is the reason we attempted some rectification via the website in the first place. Upon noting that many others also seem to confuse what we say with what they believe and thereby arrive at a thoroughly negative stance on ANYTHING said .... is it any wonder that we have long since given up on virtually all of the reasons that most of these same think we continue for?
posted by BissekArt at 6:28 pm
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