Rules rules rules - love em and live by em
It is worth reminding people why I put the website up for Bill all those years ago. A propos of some things that will soon be said it will be useful to go right back to the beginning again. Lots of things have been said since then and I will say that while a lot of information has come out the original thrust has tended to be covered over in technical squabbling.
So let us start again with why shall we? Now what does it say on the first page of the website? Let us look:
I urge you; if you are at all interested in the history of the Neo-Pagan religion "Wicca"; Pagan Traditions or "Witch Craft" to read on and for the first time make up your own minds from the text presented and not second hand gossip. We have been honoured to be allowed a view of an extraordinary man and his life and are thrilled and humbled to offer the same, (for perhaps the first time ever) to the people of the world. Bill; we thank you.
Now here is where I will say again in the simplest possible terms why we did what we did – because it seems that the above statement is too obscure for some to wrap their heads around.
We did it to get some information out to people who were being lied to.
It really is time some things were said and so I reckon I’ll say a few.
1) It is claimed over and over again that the Pickingill Papers is rubbish written by Bill
The problem is of course that it WASN’T written by Bill. Well now there is the first glaring error that these self claimed academics can’t seem to notice on their own. So much for academia – the academics can’t read as far as the preface of the book. If they haven’t managed to do that why should we take to the belief that they can read as far as, (let alone comprehend!) the pages thereafter? Far from flippancy I say it is a valid question!
2) It is claimed that it has all been disproved
The problem with this is that it categorically HASN’T! I for one don’t require this alleged proof either way but say to you NOW that my gods I wish there WAS proof one way or the other! That way we wouldn’t have to listen to the constant drone!
Now I have said this often enough over the years and it seems time now that we are returning to basics to say it loudly again:
“YES I have heard over and over how the Pickingill Papers has been disproved on all checkable points – and always from people directly traceable back to Steve Wilson who originally made the claim. SO therefore I ASK – where is this list of points with the refutations? I have never seen it!”
Furthermore, I put it to you that when such is put to those who claim it - there is no list forthcoming from them either!! Perhaps I will just have to do it myself.
I have heard often enough from people how the Pickingill Papers is misinformation and that right minded civic sorts do their bit to poo poo it when it is bought up as a public service in the traditions of truth justice and the NeoPagan way. Personally I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than being defensive.
I say this – if it is truth you want and to steer people right then … go through the book, point for point and put up the refutations! It shouldn’t be hard if they who are so emphatic about it know it all so well and clearly should it?
To make matters worse, the few that keep saying this sort of thing; KNOW what I am saying here as they have taken part in the last couple of years’ debate over at the Pagan Network boards and the like.
Now I ask you, if these people had such refutation; would they not just post it and have done with it? Well of course they would!
Has it been done? No.
Why? Because there is NO SUCH proof!
One thing Bill has stressed as long as I have known him is simply that there is NO way of proving or disproving some of the claims that were made in the Pickingill Papers. The best he has ever said it could be is that there is information that casts serious doubt on the way most would have you believe the history of modern witchcraft occurred. That there are clues that suggest that many of the claims need more than just a second glance and suggest them to be part of a cohesive whole other history that we have not been privy to.
That this is simply common sense to anyone who has actually studied history of any kind seems beside the point. History is always the way it is presented vs that which those who were in the know then actually knew it happened. We are talking about secret clubs after all – why the belief that there will be some sort of “What REALLY happened” dossier that confirms the wishful sanitized version of modern craft history floating about persists I will never know!
Unfortunately Bill is too polite to simply say this sort of thing as he considers it would be rude and suggest he thinks little of those he is speaking to. He has also suggested to me on several occasions that it would make no difference anyway as the people who most need to hear that have steadfastly shown themselves to be people who WON’T heed it. They have a vested interest in pushing the line they do and as such no one should ever expect them to agree – unless it is by accident.
3) That Steve Wilson has documentary evidence that Bill wrote it and admits it was full of errors and lies that he knew about yet published anyway
Again the problem with this is that IT is a LIE!
Indeed recently on the Pagan Network he actually had to admit that he had no such evidence and claimed that an ex of his wouldn’t let him have back (Caroline Wise). Very convenient that. Why would she not I wonder? Could not Steve and the rest of them cajole her into clearing the air once and for all? How odd – perhaps she does not share their views!?
Here are my problems with it though.
One – Bill’s letters are all long hand. He couldn’t use a computer now to save himself – much less all that time ago when I happen to know for a fact – he didn’t HAVE ONE!!
What’s that? Perhaps Steve scanned his letter in and had it on the PC as a digital document? Well perhaps, (leaving aside the foolishness of throwing away such a valuable piece of history) but then why not say so? And furthermore, it doesn’t make sense.
If *I* were Steve Wilson – then I would, (knowing the virtue of such long hand documentation) have it framed on the damn wall! I would show every single person I met and that way there would be NO DEBATE! Everyone would know it was so because they’d have seen it with their own two eyes and that would be an end to it.
When Bill arrived on the Pagan Network board I would have it scanned in, uploaded and wrapped around his ears before he could blink. There’d be no debate as it would be there in black and white straight up. It most certainly would not have had time to become the most looked at thread on their boards – even when no one is contributing!
I would furthermore know that there would be NO NEED to do any work to refute the Pickingill Papers as I had it there in his own hand!! So *IF* he had it why continue on as he has not? Again it simply doesn’t make sense.
Two – Steve had to be literally pressed to admit this in public.
Now I put it to you – for someone who is such a whiz and has so much research and so on .. he would have to be pretty damn sloppy to have lost a whole lap top of info wouldn’t he? Now I ask you – even if you were prepared to believe that could happen – are we also to believe that it happened so mysteriously that he has, only just now noticed!?
No indeed – it isn’t very likely at all. Now I say this because I know for a FACT that when Steve does put in the effort to research something he does put in the effort!! If he were just some dim watt bulb all this could be believable but frankly one can not be competent and incompetent at the same time. Indeed it is even worth noting that Steve has been asked in the past by others to produce the famous letter and all that followed on that issue was a lengthy silence and a change of topic.
I put it to you that Bill did correspond with him. He did send a long hand letter to him. It did not say what Steve alleges. Steve may have read in there what he wanted to read into it but he obviously did not read what it actually said.
I find it more likely to believe that at some stage Steve noted this and then conveniently “lost” the letter. The rest is as they say – history.
The point still remains however – how long has he been merrily “dining out” on this story knowing that it wasn’t the case? I put it to you that it has been some time now. I say this for the reasons I have already implied and the fact that of all of his mates who are so happy to join in the debate – not ONE has said: “Actually yeah I have seen it!”
Doesn’t it seem odd that not ONE of the people who have been happy to repeat or imply this in public seem to have seen the letter?
Again, like the supposed proof he has - had he such a letter he would have used it. Others would have seen it and that would have been an end to it.
4) No one gives any credence and everyone disputes the information in the Pickingill Papers
Well now that is actually something of a long bow to pull. It is more correct to say that there are in fact about a half dozen stalwarts who say this sort of thing. It is correct to say that they all say so every time George is bought up – no matter where or when. It is also correct to point out that each have obvious reasons for doing so not the least of which being that they are all traceable right back to Steve Wilson!
Lets look at the most strenuously prominent shall we?
Sethur – Steve Wilson.
Adian Kelly – Has problems with much of the Pickingill corpus for the really most threadbare of reasons. He often thinks it is a Gardnerian conspiracy.
Cavalorn - better known as Adrian Bott of White Dragon fame, who has done much work with Steve over the years and that should of course be enough said.
AmberLady – As she claims to have lived in Canewdon in the late 70’s and having found out pretty much all there was to know from everyone who would know (to something of an embarrassing extreme should she be believed! – “Who exactly were the Pickingill Ladies? Since I lived in Canewdon during the 1970s I must have known them”) I would suspect that she knew Sibyl Webster and ran into Steve, Aiden and most probably Cavalorn. Not that this would matter as they are all now Pag Fed!
Jools – travels in the same circles as her friend Amber Lady and Steve Wilson.
Ben Gruagh – Connected to Andrew Collins and to Sibyl Webster who I suppose we should then re point out must have been known to AmberLady again.
Andrew Collins – detractor who seems to stem his problems from the fact he feels the “Lugh” corpus to be robbing Murrel of fame. Connected to Sibyl Webster who he has “worked with”.
Sibyl Webster – Allegedly the Canewdon historian after living there since 65 who claims the claims that Maple exaggerated stories about Canewdon witches and George Pickingill (did Maple mention him?) she now lives in France apparently according to Ben and is releasing a book addressing the ‘Lugh’ claims about which she does not seem to be able to get right.
Now; am I saying that due to their Steve Wilson connection they all think the same?
Well no obviously not, (Amber Lady’s roughing of Steve on his assertions about the Kibbo Kift and some of the public debate between Cavalorn and Steve prove that adequately!) but they’d be hard pressed to think too differently as they all travel in the same circles have pretty much at most two degrees of separation from the same organizations, (if not Steve himself!) and so on.
I am not even going into the fact that Steve has his own group over there (as if the FOI political pulling power wasn't enough for many people!) and whaqt effect this may or may not have. We all know the way people are so let us simply leave it at that shall we?
Now I will state right here that the same can be said in reverse of myself and Bill Liddell – the difference is I make no secret of my biases and precisely why I have them! I am yet to see this anywhere else – which is BTW why I do it in the first place!
There is really no point in denying that the Pagan federation has a vested interest in rejecting much of the Pickingill Corpus as do many modern groups. There is after all, (just to note a few that concern directly many of the vocal detractors) information there in that would be considered to be none to kindly to Gardnerians, Crowleyans, Neo Pagans, Wicans in general, Feminists and Gay Rights activists.
It is quite a coincidence that at the end of the day the base line of the objection sounds remarkably familiar – albeit for different reasons. Or perhaps with that borne in mind – NOT such a coincidence after all. It is often to my mind very clear why several points are always ignored, why it always degenerates into name calling and implications and nebulous questions of truth and so on – addressing the simple points would make it all too clear.
All I am saying is this – when you see someone strenuously objecting and being dismissive about the Pickingill subject? Look into them and see how few names one must travel through until you run into these – or indeed Steve Wilson himself. It is also worth noting which of the standard lines is being alluded to – even though they each are at best shaky.
This may sound petty but it is precisely this line that is directed at us. If one wishes to make rules one should learn to live by them!
So let us start again with why shall we? Now what does it say on the first page of the website? Let us look:
This site is designed to disseminate information pertaining to George Pickingill, the Pickingill Craft, Traditional Witchcraft and the writings of a much-misrepresented man - Bill Liddell.
Many things have been said about this man and the articles that were submitted for publication by him. Even more has been said about the book The Pickingill Papers. Much of the criticism circulating about this book is written by people who have never read the book and quote from what they have heard "so and so" say about it.
We felt that it was about time that people 'out there' had something accurate to look at. As such we present here some of the writings that Bill Liddell for those who are truly interested in hearing accurate information from one who knows what they are expounding. Understand, these are not my writings and this is not my Web site - it is Bill's. I am merely the one of those who sat down and typed it out. I have put it into this medium at his request as he has not the time to do so himself.
I urge you; if you are at all interested in the history of the Neo-Pagan religion "Wicca"; Pagan Traditions or "Witch Craft" to read on and for the first time make up your own minds from the text presented and not second hand gossip. We have been honoured to be allowed a view of an extraordinary man and his life and are thrilled and humbled to offer the same, (for perhaps the first time ever) to the people of the world. Bill; we thank you.
Scott Bisseker (25/10/2000)
Now here is where I will say again in the simplest possible terms why we did what we did – because it seems that the above statement is too obscure for some to wrap their heads around.
We did it to get some information out to people who were being lied to.
It really is time some things were said and so I reckon I’ll say a few.
1) It is claimed over and over again that the Pickingill Papers is rubbish written by Bill
The problem is of course that it WASN’T written by Bill. Well now there is the first glaring error that these self claimed academics can’t seem to notice on their own. So much for academia – the academics can’t read as far as the preface of the book. If they haven’t managed to do that why should we take to the belief that they can read as far as, (let alone comprehend!) the pages thereafter? Far from flippancy I say it is a valid question!
2) It is claimed that it has all been disproved
The problem with this is that it categorically HASN’T! I for one don’t require this alleged proof either way but say to you NOW that my gods I wish there WAS proof one way or the other! That way we wouldn’t have to listen to the constant drone!
Now I have said this often enough over the years and it seems time now that we are returning to basics to say it loudly again:
“YES I have heard over and over how the Pickingill Papers has been disproved on all checkable points – and always from people directly traceable back to Steve Wilson who originally made the claim. SO therefore I ASK – where is this list of points with the refutations? I have never seen it!”
Furthermore, I put it to you that when such is put to those who claim it - there is no list forthcoming from them either!! Perhaps I will just have to do it myself.
I have heard often enough from people how the Pickingill Papers is misinformation and that right minded civic sorts do their bit to poo poo it when it is bought up as a public service in the traditions of truth justice and the NeoPagan way. Personally I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than being defensive.
I say this – if it is truth you want and to steer people right then … go through the book, point for point and put up the refutations! It shouldn’t be hard if they who are so emphatic about it know it all so well and clearly should it?
To make matters worse, the few that keep saying this sort of thing; KNOW what I am saying here as they have taken part in the last couple of years’ debate over at the Pagan Network boards and the like.
Now I ask you, if these people had such refutation; would they not just post it and have done with it? Well of course they would!
Has it been done? No.
Why? Because there is NO SUCH proof!
One thing Bill has stressed as long as I have known him is simply that there is NO way of proving or disproving some of the claims that were made in the Pickingill Papers. The best he has ever said it could be is that there is information that casts serious doubt on the way most would have you believe the history of modern witchcraft occurred. That there are clues that suggest that many of the claims need more than just a second glance and suggest them to be part of a cohesive whole other history that we have not been privy to.
That this is simply common sense to anyone who has actually studied history of any kind seems beside the point. History is always the way it is presented vs that which those who were in the know then actually knew it happened. We are talking about secret clubs after all – why the belief that there will be some sort of “What REALLY happened” dossier that confirms the wishful sanitized version of modern craft history floating about persists I will never know!
Unfortunately Bill is too polite to simply say this sort of thing as he considers it would be rude and suggest he thinks little of those he is speaking to. He has also suggested to me on several occasions that it would make no difference anyway as the people who most need to hear that have steadfastly shown themselves to be people who WON’T heed it. They have a vested interest in pushing the line they do and as such no one should ever expect them to agree – unless it is by accident.
3) That Steve Wilson has documentary evidence that Bill wrote it and admits it was full of errors and lies that he knew about yet published anyway
Again the problem with this is that IT is a LIE!
Indeed recently on the Pagan Network he actually had to admit that he had no such evidence and claimed that an ex of his wouldn’t let him have back (Caroline Wise). Very convenient that. Why would she not I wonder? Could not Steve and the rest of them cajole her into clearing the air once and for all? How odd – perhaps she does not share their views!?
Here are my problems with it though.
One – Bill’s letters are all long hand. He couldn’t use a computer now to save himself – much less all that time ago when I happen to know for a fact – he didn’t HAVE ONE!!
What’s that? Perhaps Steve scanned his letter in and had it on the PC as a digital document? Well perhaps, (leaving aside the foolishness of throwing away such a valuable piece of history) but then why not say so? And furthermore, it doesn’t make sense.
If *I* were Steve Wilson – then I would, (knowing the virtue of such long hand documentation) have it framed on the damn wall! I would show every single person I met and that way there would be NO DEBATE! Everyone would know it was so because they’d have seen it with their own two eyes and that would be an end to it.
When Bill arrived on the Pagan Network board I would have it scanned in, uploaded and wrapped around his ears before he could blink. There’d be no debate as it would be there in black and white straight up. It most certainly would not have had time to become the most looked at thread on their boards – even when no one is contributing!
I would furthermore know that there would be NO NEED to do any work to refute the Pickingill Papers as I had it there in his own hand!! So *IF* he had it why continue on as he has not? Again it simply doesn’t make sense.
Two – Steve had to be literally pressed to admit this in public.
Now I put it to you – for someone who is such a whiz and has so much research and so on .. he would have to be pretty damn sloppy to have lost a whole lap top of info wouldn’t he? Now I ask you – even if you were prepared to believe that could happen – are we also to believe that it happened so mysteriously that he has, only just now noticed!?
No indeed – it isn’t very likely at all. Now I say this because I know for a FACT that when Steve does put in the effort to research something he does put in the effort!! If he were just some dim watt bulb all this could be believable but frankly one can not be competent and incompetent at the same time. Indeed it is even worth noting that Steve has been asked in the past by others to produce the famous letter and all that followed on that issue was a lengthy silence and a change of topic.
I put it to you that Bill did correspond with him. He did send a long hand letter to him. It did not say what Steve alleges. Steve may have read in there what he wanted to read into it but he obviously did not read what it actually said.
I find it more likely to believe that at some stage Steve noted this and then conveniently “lost” the letter. The rest is as they say – history.
The point still remains however – how long has he been merrily “dining out” on this story knowing that it wasn’t the case? I put it to you that it has been some time now. I say this for the reasons I have already implied and the fact that of all of his mates who are so happy to join in the debate – not ONE has said: “Actually yeah I have seen it!”
Doesn’t it seem odd that not ONE of the people who have been happy to repeat or imply this in public seem to have seen the letter?
Again, like the supposed proof he has - had he such a letter he would have used it. Others would have seen it and that would have been an end to it.
4) No one gives any credence and everyone disputes the information in the Pickingill Papers
Well now that is actually something of a long bow to pull. It is more correct to say that there are in fact about a half dozen stalwarts who say this sort of thing. It is correct to say that they all say so every time George is bought up – no matter where or when. It is also correct to point out that each have obvious reasons for doing so not the least of which being that they are all traceable right back to Steve Wilson!
Lets look at the most strenuously prominent shall we?
Sethur – Steve Wilson.
Adian Kelly – Has problems with much of the Pickingill corpus for the really most threadbare of reasons. He often thinks it is a Gardnerian conspiracy.
Cavalorn - better known as Adrian Bott of White Dragon fame, who has done much work with Steve over the years and that should of course be enough said.
AmberLady – As she claims to have lived in Canewdon in the late 70’s and having found out pretty much all there was to know from everyone who would know (to something of an embarrassing extreme should she be believed! – “Who exactly were the Pickingill Ladies? Since I lived in Canewdon during the 1970s I must have known them”) I would suspect that she knew Sibyl Webster and ran into Steve, Aiden and most probably Cavalorn. Not that this would matter as they are all now Pag Fed!
Jools – travels in the same circles as her friend Amber Lady and Steve Wilson.
Ben Gruagh – Connected to Andrew Collins and to Sibyl Webster who I suppose we should then re point out must have been known to AmberLady again.
Andrew Collins – detractor who seems to stem his problems from the fact he feels the “Lugh” corpus to be robbing Murrel of fame. Connected to Sibyl Webster who he has “worked with”.
Sibyl Webster – Allegedly the Canewdon historian after living there since 65 who claims the claims that Maple exaggerated stories about Canewdon witches and George Pickingill (did Maple mention him?) she now lives in France apparently according to Ben and is releasing a book addressing the ‘Lugh’ claims about which she does not seem to be able to get right.
Now; am I saying that due to their Steve Wilson connection they all think the same?
Well no obviously not, (Amber Lady’s roughing of Steve on his assertions about the Kibbo Kift and some of the public debate between Cavalorn and Steve prove that adequately!) but they’d be hard pressed to think too differently as they all travel in the same circles have pretty much at most two degrees of separation from the same organizations, (if not Steve himself!) and so on.
I am not even going into the fact that Steve has his own group over there (as if the FOI political pulling power wasn't enough for many people!) and whaqt effect this may or may not have. We all know the way people are so let us simply leave it at that shall we?
Now I will state right here that the same can be said in reverse of myself and Bill Liddell – the difference is I make no secret of my biases and precisely why I have them! I am yet to see this anywhere else – which is BTW why I do it in the first place!
There is really no point in denying that the Pagan federation has a vested interest in rejecting much of the Pickingill Corpus as do many modern groups. There is after all, (just to note a few that concern directly many of the vocal detractors) information there in that would be considered to be none to kindly to Gardnerians, Crowleyans, Neo Pagans, Wicans in general, Feminists and Gay Rights activists.
It is quite a coincidence that at the end of the day the base line of the objection sounds remarkably familiar – albeit for different reasons. Or perhaps with that borne in mind – NOT such a coincidence after all. It is often to my mind very clear why several points are always ignored, why it always degenerates into name calling and implications and nebulous questions of truth and so on – addressing the simple points would make it all too clear.
All I am saying is this – when you see someone strenuously objecting and being dismissive about the Pickingill subject? Look into them and see how few names one must travel through until you run into these – or indeed Steve Wilson himself. It is also worth noting which of the standard lines is being alluded to – even though they each are at best shaky.
This may sound petty but it is precisely this line that is directed at us. If one wishes to make rules one should learn to live by them!
posted by BissekArt at 9:58 pm
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