The Retail Therapy from Pickingill Plaza
Poor dear, in terms of alleged Pickingill refutations, once upon a time this was the flavour of the month, now it is being eclipsed by others. Type "Pickingill" into a search engine and you would get notes from this talk over and over and over again. It was re-printed and cherished like some sort of touchstone! While it certainly had some useful information in it, it also had the wonderfully bias coloured section on George and the Pickingill corpus.
This section has any number of problems which Bill has dealt with very fairly to my mind @:
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/angelic/361/2.htm
I on the other hand, am a tad more scathing on that particular section than he. I argue that Julia's stance is made entirely clear and that her particular bias colours the information to such an extent that it could conceivably be imagined that she would even go as far as selective omission to make one thing appear as another.
Consider the statement: "as I think it extremely dubious that he had any connection with Gardner, or any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still in Malaya."
Well duh! So? I mean here we have a statement designed, (it seems) to imply from the outset there is no connection between the two because they never met. I am deliberately NOT going to suggest that Julia is thick witted enough to believe such a daft statement as I can't believe that is the case which unfortunately only leaves me with the possibility that the talk was presented this way for purpose.
From the rest of the section, it seems to me that she seems to believe that George ran nine covens (much like the High Priest of a modern Wiccan coven) and that if Gerald Gardner was an initiate of any of these associated groups he must have therefore met George. Given the fairly obvious time-lines this would indeed by definition be impossible! The fact that George did not run nine covens in this or any other manner is quite beside the point in this case! Where a couple of such assumptions that were made, acted on and disputed with come from I don't know. Perhaps from the magic "cloud-cuckoo" land she so graciously ascribes to Bill (who by the way was publically outed by this talk!!)
No, the problem with Julia's talk is that once again, it seems that a detractor has NOT read what was presented, has then simply come up what they THINK was said and then decided they will run with it for a while and then laughingly dismiss it in public. From past experience in other fields I can well remember how embarrassing this can be. As for her personal problems and the ire that can also be descried in this talk towards Bill and the subject in general? - well I'll leave that between the people involved.
Here, however, in brief are my ideas on this section of Julia’s talk. When I read this section certain ideas occur to me and I reprint them here for your personal interes-amusement:
At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as I think it extremely dubious that he had any connection with Gardner, or any other modern Wiccan.
I doubt that Gardner and George had any actual contact whatsoever – the time line of history would suggest otherwise. The same could be said for “any other modern” wiccan. "Connection" is a suitably nebulous term that can be taken in many ways. Did the work of Pickingill have an impact upon and affect the future form called Wicca? Most certainly. Does this mean that they had a connection in the context of contact even to direct twice removed? Obviously not.
Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still in Malaya.
Exactly - another fine reason why it could not of occured in the manner which several have assumed was the case. The fact that some have done precisely this and then laughed at us because of their misinterpretation is quite bewildering.
Eric Maple is largely responsible for the beginnings of the Pickingill myth, which were expanded by Bill Liddell (Lugh) writing in "The Wiccan" and "The Cauldron" throughout the 1970s. Mike Howard still has some of Liddell's material which he has never published, and I have yet to meet anyone within the British Craft who gives credence to Liddell's claims.
Ok to begin with here are some points that one might have thought someone who was interested in informing might have "made off their own bat".
- Eric Maple's book is The Dark World of Witches (1962) and it gives some small accounts of George Pickingill which is a combination of several half remembered stories from some people he spoke to on the subject. Bill was investigating in this area even prior to then.
- Mike howard would still have material he never published as they had corresponded for years (and I will point out that some of that has found it's way into the magazine as well!)
- That Julia's cicrcle of friends and acquaintances would not give creedence to Liddell's claims is hardly news worthy of surprising and it is presented here in this context simply to suggest it is tenuous at best
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/angelic/361/1.htm states:
“Kelly has demonstrated that he is the purveyor of "hard, verifiable facts" by carefully editing a letter from a highly-respected witch to convince his readers that Mike Howard stopped publishing the 'Lugh' material because it was becoming progressively preposterous. This claim is palpably untrue. Mike Howard has assured me that he honestly cannot remember making such a statement!
Mike Howard was unable to publish the 'Lugh' articles when my Brethren ceased forwarding material to me. The articles stopped abruptly because I had no further material to submit to him after 1981 or 1982. However, Mike had a back-log of my letters which he continued to publish until 1992! This gives the lie direct to Kelly's snide attempt to discredit 'Lugh.'”
One wonders what the connection between Julia and Kelly is - or does it not exist due to the fact that they may not have ever met?
Furthermore, some have zeroed in on the “nobody in the British Craft” line and there are three major problems with it. I have said this before but it is well worth saying again!
1. Nobody? Well who asked the question and who was asked? Who are these experts? Does anyone remember?
2. There are several in the modern British Craft circles who have a vested interest in refuting the Pickingill material – hell they do talks on it!!
3. As has been reiterated time and time again, Traditional British Groups at the time of George Pickingill were openly antagonised by his public behaviour and those groups descended there from in Gardner’s time were largely agreed that no one should remember him. The same could be said for his practices, which are antithetical in many ways to the practices of Traditional British Witch Groups. Besides, why would Gardner jeopardise his nice new Wicca with a shady character like George?
In the book, "The Dark World of Witches", published in 1962, Maple tells of a number of village wise women and cunning men, one of whom is George Pickingill. There is a photograph included of an old man with a stick, holding a hat, which Maple describes as Pickingill. This photograph has subsequently been re-used many times in books about witchcraft and Wicca.
And quite a fetching photo it is!
Issue number 31 of "Insight" Magazine, dated July 1984, contains a very interesting letter from John Pope: "The photograph purporting to be Old George Pickingill is in fact a photo of Alf Cavill, a station porter at Ellstree, taken in the early 1960s. Alf is now dead, but he was no witch, and laughed over the photograph when he saw it."
So what you are saying is that it is this one letter from John Pope should just on spec be taken at face value against the regional based folk lorist who had been given the picture in the first place by those who knew old George. Well fair enough then I won't bother to suggest the obvious can't prove it is - can't prove it ain't that is so obviously in existence here - it is too obvious.
I will not even go into the fact of the strange story that has surfaced regarding a picture found by Robert Plant which features on Led Zepplin's fourth Album.
A very respected Craft authority has told me that he believes the photo, which is in his possession, to be of Pickingill, but like so much to do with Craft history, there is no definitive answer to this one.
Mike Howard is the name of the unnamed craft authority alluded to here in suitably mysterious fashion. The fact stands though, as you say, how to prove and how to disprove? Surely the best course of action when summing up info is to be as objective as possible? I know I have done so for my own benefit and thereby know what *I* believe and why but I think I would be loathe to give a public talk and give so little by way of unbiased speculation presented as fact.
Many claims were made by Liddell; some obviously from cloud-cuckoo land, others which could, by a stretch of the imagination, be accepted.
This makes it quite clear what Julia really thinks - and one might surmise what is the coin of teh realm in the circles she travels. It iw worth noting here also that Julia has "outed" Bill as “Lugh” here. I must say that insults are often the most common preface to such activity so I will not be surprised. At this time not even Bill's wife knew he was "lugh" nor even that he was a witch. *Shakes Head* One finds it difficult to believe that someone like Julia with her background would do this in ignorance - almost as difficult to believe that it would be done at all for any reason. So much for objectivity and your implied desire for definitive answers.
The very idea of Pickingill, an illiterate farm labourer, co-ordinating and supervising nine covens across the breadth of the UK is staggering. To accept - as Liddell avers - that he had the likes of Alan Bennett and Aleister Crowley as his pupils bends credulity even further.
To begin with, that would be George’s SON you are talking about (he was the illiterate!) and secondly, why is it so hard to believe? (You will note studiously here that I am not even bringing up the fact that this was information written by ANOTHER and then given TO BILL – he did NOT write it himself!)
All that aside - let us just set the recod straight. George was NOT illiterate and did NOT co-ordinate or supervise nine covens across the breadth of the UK. These things are said no where and are assumptions one would expect from someone with a standard Wiccan background however that does not make them accurate. That he had pupils the likes of Alan Bennett and Aliester Crowly is not all that difficult to believe either.
The infamous photograph, which Liddell claims, shows Crowley, Bennett and Pickingill together have conveniently disappeared, and no one admits to ever having seen it.
Again, rather should we say: “The infamous photograph, which an associate of Liddell’s claims …..” – while it seems like splitting hairs it really isn’t! If we are going to concern ourselves with facts and correct reporting of the same, such things make a mighty difference. Also, Julia is showing her background here. Some old witches are very picky on the subject of having their photograph taken – even to the point of simple drawn likenesses so I don’t see how this story is unfeasible at all. Even a wiccan should be able to understand how a photo may be used against a witch and well, to have a photo with these three people in it would be worth a small fortune in some circles.
Like most of Liddell's claims, nothing has ever been substantiated, and when pushed, he retreats into the time-honoured favourite of, "I can't reveal that - you're not an initiate"!
"Sour grapes" is a fair way I think to characterise this statement and goes further I feel to validate the wry observation that much "witchcraft study" is simply "the result of not being allowed to join". Furthermore, I must say that to assume a moral high ground is a dangerous thing really, after all in order to “sling mud” one must have a ready supply of it in the first place. Oddly enough, Bill can’t recall ever saying that to you – nor ever even being “pressed” by you on the subject. Perhaps it might be like so many of the problems you point to in this talk, shall we say politely; the result of your own misreading and miscomprehension? Perhaps it is like another famous alleged instance of Bill saying something to someone that has never surfaced?
Here is what I mean when I say reprinted and used like some sort of touchstone. Eight out of nine on this page are references to Julia talk and fully thirty five out of the first hundred are this talk! :
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Pickingill&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&xargs=0&pstart=1&fr=FP-tab-web-t&b=71
71. Untitled Document
... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still ...members.iinet.net.au/~wayland/page43.html - 49k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
72. HISTORY OF WICCA IN ENGLAND: 1939 - present day This talk was given by Julia Phillips at t
The Skeptic Tank text archives. ... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... or any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was ...www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/history.htm - 47k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
73. "Wicca", "Paganism", "New Age", "Counterculture", : SF Bay Area Indymedia
... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still ...www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1557279.php - 73k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
74. History Of Wicca In England: 1939 - Present Day :: Paganality.com :: (yes, it's magik :)
... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still ...paganality.com/pagan-article-historical-events-history-of-wicca-in-... - More from this site - Save - Block
75. CraftSchool
... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still ...www.wicca.utvinternet.com/whistory.htm - 59k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
76. wicca for christians
... character" of the late 19th century named George Pickingill, who publically proclaimed himself a hereditary witch ...www.ncsu.edu/stud_orgs/spm/pub/Wicca - 18k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
77. http://www.witcheswell.com/text/wicca/wicca-18.txt
HISTORY OF WICCA IN ENGLAND: 1939 - Present Day This talk was given by Julia Phillips at the Wiccan Conference in Canberra, 1991. ... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... or any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was ...www.witcheswell.com/text/wicca/wicca-18.txt - More from this site - Save - Block
78. History of Wicca in England
A historical account of the emergence of Wicca within England. ... with Gardner, or any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still in Malaya ... for the beginnings of the Pickingill myth, which were expanded by Bill ...draeconin.com/database/wiccahist.htm - 49k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
79. "Wicca", "Paganism", "New Age", "Counterculture", : SF Indymedia
... At this point, I will just mention George Pickingill, although he is not shown on the tree, as ... any other modern Wiccan. Pickingill died in 1909, whilst Gardner was still ...sf.indymedia.org/print.php?id=1557279 - 49k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
80. Biografie Aleister Crowley
... apparently he was not welcome for long (see 'Old George Pickingill'). It is alleged that he obtained his 'Second Degree ...wicca106.tripod.com/id19.html - More from this site - Save - Block
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Faulty first premise is a mother of delusion and here once again we see not simply how one person may be embarrassed at a later date by a simple example of it, but also how it can lead many others way off the track into total confusion and THEN AGAIN how this same can spread like wildfire. The fact remains also that this is all exemplary of how we should be careful to not present opinion and speculation as fact to those who may not know better nor be inclined to question someone p0resented to them as some sort of "authority".
All of this aside, it is further a pity as it certainly makes the rest of the talk seem suspect – even though it is in my opinion, quite good and worthwhile!
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